Do you really support the troops ??

[sexytxhunga]

This is a great spot on article on what it means to truly support our troops.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michae...comm_ref=false

[Guest021716-4]

THAT IS EXACTLY SPOT ON. Thank you for posting this.

[sundog]

You have addressed one of the most significant issues of our time - a nation that goes blissfully on its way living ordinary lives while scores of brave young men and women don their battle gear and defend us against enemies far and wide. I am a Vietnam vet...a vet of the first war when the people of this country actually turned against the troops. When I returned from Vietnam in late 1969 I was met with outright hostility. My response was to hide my service from prying eyes after I got out. Only a very select few people - close friends, family - knew I was a veteran. This lasted for at least 12 years until I sat watching "Deer Hunter" with my younger girlfriend and her roommates. When DeNiro was asked by one of his old hunting buddies where he'd been and what he'd been up to after he had escaped from the VC all he could do to respond was stare back. It was then I understood that there was no possible way someone who had not been in his shoes could understand his experience. I melted down and got up and left - I've never felt so alone in my life, so detached from normal life. I returned carrying a heavy burden - among other things I wrote all of the letters home to the families of the men who would never return, and it took a terrible toll on me. It still does. Vietnam was somewhat unique, as most of us went as individuals and were assigned to units across the country as manpower needs dictated, then sent home alone a year later, much changed, to a world that had no clue about the hell we had just escaped. Survivor guilt, guilt about deeds committed in the name of God and Country yet totally against everything we had been taught about right and wrong from birth, the witnessing of carnage, the smell of cordite and burning flesh - there was no squaring that experience with going to McDonald's for a Big Mac and a vanilla shake and taking in a movie at the drive in.

In the 80's Reagan came along with his "Welcome Back" parades and ice cream socials while his budget director David Stockman slashed and burned the VA budget (Stockman had a Harvard Seminary deferment until the war was over then went to work on Wall Street, much like most of the hawks, including Cheney, who had 5 deferments). The help that began to trickle down to us came too late, and wasn't enough. Dealing with the VA was frustrating (and still is) - we get most of our help from fellow veterans who weathered the storm more effectively. I have private insurance because the VA system would have killed me years ago. We have battalion reunions every 2 years because those are the only people who really know what we went through because we went through it together. We were the first unit to lose our American ground forces and have them replaced with South Vietnamese soldiers who really didn't want to be there any more than we did...the term "Vietnamization" wasn't coined until they decided the experiment had a chance of working, and we were the guinea pigs.

Over the entire term of the Vietnam War there were only about 2 million soldiers who were in direct combat roles. That was 2 million out of a nation of 250 million, or less than 1%. In the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan the proportion of combat vets to the nation's population is even smaller, and the need to answer our country's call to arms is even less common than it was in my war. Let someone else's son/daughter. do it, and make sure you thank them for defending the world financial system and the world oil cartels, but be sure to mask it as defending our democracy, and please...try to be sincere.

Michael Moore has it exactly right. If you have not served and been exposed to the horrors of war, if you have not lost a loved one or a friend, if you profit from our involvements protecting our "national interests" you may see him as anti-American or inflammatory. I do not. He speaks for me, and for many vets that I know who feel the same.

The best thing you can do as a civilian "bystander" (because that's what you are)is dig deep into your pockets and pay for the huge losses in blood and treasure we have suffered. Make this right. Or at least send your son or daughter to do the nation's bidding. Draft everyone - no exceptions - right out of high school. This includes the sons and daughters of Senators, Congressmen, even the President. No exceptions!

Thank you for starting this thread, and no one had better say "Thank You For Your Service" to me. It pisses me off!

[unagi]

Not a big fan of Moore, but this is great. "Support The Troops" started in the first Iraq war to squash criticism of the war. You can be against the war, but you have to "support the troops," which was meaningless.

It was also a reaction to Vietnam protesters who demonstrated against returning Vietnam Vets and called them babykillers. Odd that people criticized drafted soldier then, but you can't criticize people who volunteer to kill people.

The wealthy and powerful will always get out of a draft, or will get positions that keep them out of harm's way.

I don't support the war or the troops. Joining the military for most is a sucker bet, but maybe the only alternative for the poor or uneducated. The government use them as fodder for their misplaced political goals and do nothing for them once they leave the military.

[sundog]

Unagi,you and I probably don't like Moore for some of the same reasons - he's too caustic. You have to admit, though, that true investigative journalism doesn't make a whole lot of folks happy, and he gets to the heart of the matter.

I was never a fan of the all volunteer army - I read that to mean a mercenary force. A citizen army, when absolutely necessary, is the only way to go, and, actually, is what was the intent of the Constitution and the 2nd Amendment. But the world has changed.

The army of today is an army of economic necessity for the majority of enlistees. Our jobs have gone to the lowest bidders, and rural youth don't have much to look forward to - urban youth, too, for that matter.

BTW, thanks, Scarlett, for your support of this thread. I'll buy you a beer someday...

[derop]

As a younger Iraq veteran I'll give my two cents. I really don't care if you support the troops or the wars. Our whole purpose is to defend your right to do so. With that being said I am very glad I didn't have to go through the shit that other veterans like sundog had to go through when they returned from their wars. I do get a lot of empty "thank you for your service" replies when I tell people I'm a vet, but I'd rather take an empty thank you than being shit on for just doing my job. So what could you do to really support the troops? I don't even know really. Maybe call your congressman and get them to push for faster VA reform, there's also plenty of good charities that cater to the troops, if you're a business owner maybe try to hire more veterans; transitioning from military to civilian life is a struggle a lot veterans are going through these days especially in this economy. Oh, and if you're a provider how about a veterans discount? LOL.

[Guest021716-4]

Originally Posted by sundog

Unagi,you and I probably don't like Moore for some of the same reasons - he's too caustic. You have to admit, though, that true investigative journalism doesn't make a whole lot of folks happy, and he gets to the heart of the matter.

I was never a fan of the all volunteer army - I read that to mean a mercenary force. A citizen army, when absolutely necessary, is the only way to go, and, actually, is what was the intent of the Constitution and the 2nd Amendment. But the world has changed.

The army of today is an army of economic necessity for the majority of enlistees. Our jobs have gone to the lowest bidders, and rural youth don't have much to look forward to - urban youth, too, for that matter.

BTW, thanks, Scarlett, for your support of this thread. I'll buy you a beer someday...

No Sir, I will buy your beer one day. This really doesn't mean much coming from a civilian, but when I have those days where I feel sorry for myself I try to remember the things my father went thru. And remember his words to me once when I think I can't do something or want to give up. He said, "If I could make it thru Vietnam, you can make it thru this." I had to take a journalism class and got up the nerve to ask him about what happened. It still shutter and suspect there are many many things I don't know and don't want to know. BUT, I did have my explanation as to why he was absent emotionally while I was growing up. He was there, but he was not and still isn't. AND FOR WHAT? Sorry, I have gotten way off track and too personal. My apologies and I hope I don't offend anyone.

[sundog]

Scarlett, dear, my father was a WWII POW - in my entire life he never told me he loved me, especially after the army gave me the boot when I came home so damaged. I understand very well what you experienced as a child. I know my father cared for me - he just had a difficult time expressing it. Both my mother and father had a tough time with me when I came home. Perhaps over that beer I can help you to understand some of the things he was never able to tell you. I gladly accept your offer, but I'm not sure when it will happen, as I'll be leaving Texas soon. Your comments mean more to me than you might think. My parents are both gone, but I had the great privilege of spending eight of their final years with them and they got to know me much better. I do support the troops. I hire vets. I help them by listening to their difficulties readjusting to civilian life - Lord knows I have personal experience in that field, and still have a hard time with the shallowness of those who let us do their dirty work for them. My response to the young Iraq vet is simple and straightforward - you and your brethren, me an my brethren - we're all combat brothers. We understand what the experience really means. That said, nothing that was done in Iraq or Afghanistan had anything to do with protecting our democracy; instead, it was about the neo-conservative concept of the Project for a New American Century, a plan everyone called crazy until three years later those crazies were actually running our government. The PNAC published a White Paper on Iraq in 1998 that laid out the doctrine of pre-emptive defense and the need for a regime change in Iraq. Both were centered on the world economic system's dependence on Middle Eastern oil. If you doubt this, then do some research, and find Paul Wolfowitz' news conference in Singapore the end of May 2003 - Wolfowitz spilled the beans - "Iraq swims on a lake of oil". Several days later in Tokyo he regurgitated seven pages of monologue explaining why what he said in Singapore was irrelevant because we could have Iraqi oil anytime we wanted it...blah, blah, blah. We protected oil interests, we still are. We were protecting Indonesian oil by being in Vietnam. Now we are stationing naval assets in the South China Sea to prevent China from getting to the oil reserves there. We pay at the pump, we give them tax credits for foreign taxes they pay, and we give them numerous incentives (called "tax treatments" by their industry shills) and about $4B in actual cash every tax year, and then we spend blood and treasure to defend their interests abroad. How does that protect my right to speak freely?

Originally Posted by Scarlett Rossi

No Sir, I will buy your beer one day. This really doesn't mean much coming from a civilian, but when I have those days where I feel sorry for myself I try to remember the things my father went thru. And remember his words to me once when I think I can't do something or want to give up. He said, "If I could make it thru Vietnam, you can make it thru this." I had to take a journalism class and got up the nerve to ask him about what happened. It still shutter and suspect there are many many things I don't know and don't want to know. BUT, I did have my explanation as to why he was absent emotionally while I was growing up. He was there, but he was not and still isn't. AND FOR WHAT? Sorry, I have gotten way off track and too personal. My apologies and I hope I don't offend anyone.