I can't believe this hasn't been discussed yet

[Ansley]

I would love to hear the opinions from people about the mosque being built in New York.

[Rudyard K]

I'm not sure you could get away with it today...given all the hype. But the easy answer would have been the low profile answer. If I hadn't wanted it to get built...it would have never gotten out of P and Z.

[Guest083011]

I consider myself a quasi New Yorker in that I worked in the city of the years (seventies, eighties), many friends/acquantainences work there, and I get in a couple of times a year. Plus my own town lost people in the 9/11 attack. There's even a 9/11 Memorial nearby at a State Park (Sherwood Island) that usually the Governor and other dignitaries attend (as they will this year).

So all that being said, here are my thoughts in no particular order:
I wish the builder/leader would consider another location. Yes there have been mosques in lower Manhattan, but this kind of rubs it in our collective faces, especially after the attention now being paid to it.

Religious freedom is a foundation of this country, period. Granted 250 years ago there wasn't the extremism that we now see in almost every religion (too many cults to list).

Who the heck is advising (or not advising the President)? I wish he had not gotten into it. Quietly you can say, "I wish they would build there." And have that communicated through low key channels.

Mike Bloomberg, who is Jewish, has steadfastly said they have the right to do what they want and pray where they want. (but he'll broker a deal to facilitate a change, quietly).

An anti-defamation who has worked with the builder before has suggested that perhaps it isn't the best place.

I may add more, the coffee is brewing. It is early and I have a busy day.

(I hate stepping into a political thread).

[Tiffany Cums]

I agree with S R

Our great country is so great because of all the values we hold true, includeing Religious Freedom. Although I am not an Obama fan, I think he was right in his original speech concerning it.

It is, in fact, in poor taste...very poor taste. They should be allowed too, but why would they even consider it? And don't they realize the cost and headache they will be taking on when it is repeatedly defaced?

[Guest083011]

Now having TC with me just sounds like fun! Com'n over babe.

So if you were a construction worker, looking to build that "fine" structure, you'd put your heart and soul in it, right? Yeah, sure; NY steel workers, tradespeople, teamsters etc., we'll by right there. If not, you guys start without us. Permitting process might be fun too. I see a sitcom.

Originally Posted by Tiffany Cums

I agree with SR

Our great country is so great because of all the values we hold true, includeing Religious Freedom. Although I am not an Obama fan, I think he was right in his original speech concerning it.

It is, in fact, in poor taste...very poor taste. They should be allowed too, but why would they even consider it? And don't they realize the cost and headache they will be taking on when it is repeatedly defaced?

[charlestudor2005]

Guess I'm going to take it up a notch.

SR, yes there were zealots here 250 years ago: they were called Puritans and Protestants. They were escaping European (especially English) religious persecution.

Second, as knowledgeable writers keep pointing out, there were Muslim victims in 9/11. Right there in the towers, and not just the planes. There were probably Muslim victim passengers in the planes, also. Should they be marginalized because the terrorists happened to be Muslim? Actually, calling them "terrorists" is promoting them...they were just common criminals engaged in an uncommon criminal act.

Third, the true Muslim faith is a very peaceful religion. Does it have aspects with which I disagree? Yes, but so does Catholicism, and most every Protestant denomination around. It has the largest number of members world-wide by far (we lose sight of this in the US), and if only (to pick a figure out the the air) 1% of all religious people are fanatics, sheer numbers would indicate that there would be more Muslims than others. Remember, Christians in the US have their Tim McVeys, Europe still has Ireland, and so it goes.

Fourth, I believe their Freedom of Religion under the US Constitution allows them to build a mosque on their privately-owned land and consecrate it and make it holy.

Fifth, in the great Christian tradition, we should love our enemies. As Martin Luther King Jr. said:

Democracy is the greatest form of government to my mind that man has ever conceived, but the weakness is that we have never touched it. Isn't it true that we have often taken necessities from the masses to give luxuries to the classes? Isn't it true that we have often in our democracy trampled over individuals and races with the iron feet of oppression? Isn't it true that through our Western powers we have perpetuated colonialism and imperialism? And all of these things must be taken under consideration as we look at Russia. We must face the fact that the rhythmic beat of the deep rumblings of discontent from Asia and Africa is at bottom a revolt against the imperialism and colonialism perpetuated by Western civilization all these many years. The success of communism in the world today is due to the failure of democracy to live up to the noble ideals and principles inherent in its system.

And this is what Jesus means when he said: "How is it that you can see the mote in your brother's eye and not see the beam in your own eye?" Or to put it in Moffatt?s translation: "How is it that you see the splinter in your brother's eye and fail to see the plank in your own eye?" And this is one of the tragedies of human nature. So we begin to love our enemies and love those persons that hate us whether in collective life or individual life by looking at ourselves.

A second thing that an individual must do in seeking to love his enemy is to discover the element of good in his enemy, and everytime you begin to hate that person and think of hating that person, realize that there is some good there and look at those good points which will over-balance the bad points.

I've said to you on many occasions that each of us is something of a schizophrenic personality. We?re split up and divided against ourselves. And there is something of a civil war going on within all of our lives. There is a recalcitrant South of our soul revolting against the North of our soul. And there is this continual struggle within the very structure of every individual life. There is something within all of us that causes us to cry out with Ovid, the Latin poet, "I see and approve the better things of life, but the evil things I do." There is something within all of us that causes us to cry out with Plato that the human personality is like a charioteer with two headstrong horses, each wanting to go in different directions. There is something within each of us that causes us to cry out with Goethe, "There is enough stuff in me to make both a gentleman and a rogue." There is something within each of us that causes us to cry out with Apostle Paul, "I see and approve the better things of life, but the evil things I do."

[RN1204]

Islam is a violent religion in its teaching for the most part. May I remind any American or citizen of the world that Islamic belief and teaching was the prime reason for the destruction of the Twin Towers and the murder of thousands of innocent Americans. It is also a prominent force in nuclear catastrophe that Iran would like to unleash on the World. Not all Muslims are bad; do not get me wrong. However, this religion has the potential and extreme likelihood to produce discipled offspring that will be Ant-American and Anti-anything that opposes their beliefs and practices.

Adolph Hitler had very similar views. He believed in the perfect race and the eradication of anyone who threatened it. Saddam Hussein was heavily influenced by Islam, and he was guilty of genocide among other atrocious acts of terror and mayhem.

Alminejhad and Bin Laden are the perfect example of what Islam and its followers are capable of. Is that what we want in our country? WTF does one think they would do if they had free reign? A dominant religion of Islam in this country would given them a ticket to do whatever they wish. Many people do not understand that there is an undying allegiance with these people. It is cultish, and they will follow their leaders to death. I cannot say that Islam will be the dominant religion in this nation at any point, but it is the fast growing religion in the world. Be wary.

The idea that Muslims get a bad rap is bullshit. They gave themselves a bad rap and continue to do so. Not all of them practice violence, but the basis of their religion lends itself to the embracing of it, and many will. How many people will die before naive Americans realize that a large part of these people hate them? To the peaceable Muslims, I extend my courtesy, but in no way do I want a potentially threatening entity to proliferate in this country.

I would suggest to anyone the detailed reading of the Qur'an and then you tell me it does not teach that anyone who opposes or rejects this religion is worthy of tortuous death and is consider an infidel.

The problem is that this religion has the inherit potential to produce monsters. It already has the world over. Do you honestly think that there will be cessation of that? Yes, freedom of religion was a founding principle, but many Muslims do not believe that Americans should even be free to live, much less anything else. Invite their proliferation in this country, and the future will not be good. Many people do not realize the potential long term implications of this. If Islam becomes the dominant religion in this country in say the next 100 years, that religious influence will move into the government by way of Islamic believing leaders and government officials over time. It will evolve into something not fully conceptualized by most, and this nation may very well be reduced to a Dictatorship if we are not careful.

The blood of lost soldier's from the previous century paid for our freedom, and it is a reproach to invite such a potentially threatening religion to flourish in this country, particularly on or near the grounds where Islam destroyed many American lives. That is blasphemy in its purest sense.

Would you want a memorial to Islam placed in your backyard where an Islamic influenced maniac took the life of your spouse and forever changed your family's life? Think about it. This is very controversial to say the least. What good has Islam generated to the world? I am sure there is some, but the acts of terror eclipse most everything else, and they will only get worse.

Bush was an idiot to declare Islam peaceable. Obama has his place in idiocy as well. Our government as a whole is shit, and this nation as a whole is on the downslide morally, judicially, and fiscally. The Great America is what I love, but as a friend of mine said not long ago, "this is not the nation I fought a war for."

These are sad times.

[charlestudor2005]

RN1204, you're just flat wrong. But we can agree to disagree. You just cannot generalize the criminal acts of a few "Muslims" to the worldwide population of 1.5 billion. That's like saying all Protestants believe the same as Tim McVey.

[RN1204]

Charlestudor,


Answer me this: Has Tim McVey had world wide adverse influence on the scale that Islam has? Has his minor influence stretched across many waters with the potential to be a growing problem and a threat to not only American but Europe and others as well? Was a counter insurgency launched against anything he perpetuated?

A few Germans, relative to the world population, began a campaign that nearly took the world, and it took a nuclear war to stop it.

Believe what you like; naivete is the mother of disaster.

You, my friend, are wrong, but yes, we can agree to disagree.

[charlestudor2005]

No, just here in the good ole USA. But the world would disagree that Islam has had an adverse influence.

[Bliss]

Originally Posted by RN1204

I would suggest to anyone the detailed reading of the Qur'an and then you tell me it does not teach that anyone who opposes or rejects this religion is worthy of tortuous death and is consider an infidel.

Um......kinda like the bible? If we took the bible literally, to the letter, we would all be put to death for working on the Sabbath. The bible advocates violence and death to non-believers in massive amounts throughout.

[nevergaveitathought]

Originally Posted by charlestudor2005

RN1204, you're just flat wrong. But we can agree to disagree. You just cannot generalize the criminal acts of a few "Muslims" to the worldwide population of 1.5 billion. That's like saying all Protestants believe the same as Tim McVey.

was tim mcvey a Christian (where did protestant come from anyway?)? look at his words and actions.

blithely repeating Mcvey was a Christian and throwing him on some pile of "religious" extremists in attempts create Christian terrorists is similar to saying my dad was a shriner and wore a lil red fez and i went to a few parades with my dad as a kid but i havent been to a single parade since i grew up, i say im not a shriner but still the idea i am a shriner is repeated.

he attended mass with his father, who was irish catholic, as a child. in an interview with time magazine he said he "sort of lost touch" with that and that "i never really picked that up", although he had "core beliefs". most people have core beliefs of the universe, how it was formed etc. The Guardian reported that McVey wrote a letter to them stating he was an agnostic and didnt beleive in a hell. He also said that science was his "god".

he didnt commit his terrible act in the name of any religion or god. it was an anti-government act. he was so far around one bend of the curve he met the progressives and anarchists at the other end. they, those who create havoc at g8 meetings, could claim him, if anyone can.

Maybe McVey was a scientist.

Originally Posted by Bliss

Um......kinda like the bible? If we took the bible literally, to the letter, we would all be put to death for working on the Sabbath. The bible advocates violence and death to non-believers in massive amounts throughout.

ridiculous, stick to something you know

[RN1204]

Bliss,

Have you read the New Testament? It is not hard to discern that you are likely atheist or agnostic and that you have not read the Bible "to the letter." Work on the Sabbath was not prohibited under the New Covenant. Neither was death at the hand of a man approved of. Take the story of the woman caught in adultery that Christ intervened in the stoning of and did not condemn her for instance.

What the Bible does make explicit is that we do not live under the Old Covenant, and that Judgement passed by men is wrong under the new. Did you read those parts?

Yes I have read the Old Testament as well, before you ask.

Interestingly enough, the Muslims will not allow the building of the third Jewish temple on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, as it is under Islamic control. Fancy them wanting to build a mosque on OUR soil where thousands were killed by those under the influence of Islamic teaching.

I never advocated any religion over the other, if that is what you were implying. I simply pointed out what has been birthed from the one in question, but I am sure you already knew that.

One last thing, Women are considered inferior in the Muslim religion. I am sure that would be appealing to you, wouldn't it?

Ciao

[PaganGuy]

Commented on this elsewhere. Anybody has the right to build anything they want anywhere they want, that is America. And if all followers of a huge major faith are demonized eternally (by fanatical members of another major faith anyway) for the actions of a few fanatics... They shouldnt be allowed to build churches near abortion clinics where wackos attacked innocent people either.
This holy war mentality has to stop. Not all Muslims are terrorists any more than all Jews are greedy moneylenders or all Christians are gun toting slack-jawed yokels.

[RN1204]

Originally Posted by PaganGuy

Commented on this elsewhere. Anybody has the right to build anything they want anywhere they want, that is America. And if all followers of a huge major faith are demonized eternally (by fanatical members of another major faith anyway) for the actions of a few fanatics... They shouldnt be allowed to build churches near abortion clinics where wackos attacked innocent people either.
This holy war mentality has to stop. Not all Muslims are terrorists any more than all Jews are greedy moneylenders or all Christians are gun toting slack-jawed yokels.

Have any of the things you mentioned had global security pertinence? The Muslims themselves termed the word Jihad which appears many times in the Qur'an, and it is a fundamental element of Islam belief. It means struggle, and it is in relation to faith battles which have now evolved into world-wide issues. It is a prime force in global nuclear threats, terrorists attacks, and other things. What you say is true, but you leave out the important facts of extreme GLOBAL threats that stem from a religious base, namely Islam. Other religions rarely pose a threat on that scale, if at all. Analyze and report things in their entirety, if you are going to post a reply. I enjoy educated responses.