honesty is key. lets try some?

[Chocot]

ok i am 35 male blk strong,educated union blue dirty collar worker.i have noticed more ladies warning no aa or no black men. i must know what happend? i havnt ever in my life seen more no black men since history lectures at ksu.....im simply curious as to why?.....now there are a few beautiful ladies that are cool as morning rain i love you all but i have to ask.....?

[jackson12345]

Good discussion my brother! I once did a post refrencing the same frustration you presented. I have been hung up on, told to f--k off, and told that "I don't date black men" way too many times. I have been told that some women don't date black men because their pimps are black and the pimps don't want the competition (if you know what I mean). I have also been told that they have had bad experiences of some black men (only a few) have been disrespectful, don't want to pay to play, or have been rude. I try to be respectful at all times and have had some who don't normally date black give me a chance because of it. Once they see that I am an educated, articulate, respectful, and professional black man they are pleasantly surprised. It is sad that discrimination still happens in 2016. What's even more sad is that even in the hobby we are experiencing discrimination because of the color of our skin.

[satan666]

now I have to touch base on this. as a white male im sure my opinion has no bearing on this. but there are women of every race that choose not to see black men because it is purely preference! and racism has absolutely nothing to do with it. if a lady is rude or derogatory in any way racism is probably a factor! but if a woman has an nba policy it can be the simple fact of preference in men not racism.

closed mindedness like what you said Jackson is just as bad after all it is 2016 like you said!
to put yourself out there as a victim of circumstance is atrocious. everybody is entitled to their opinion. but for you to say that it is racist or bigotry because a woman chooses not to see you is just sad.

it is opinions like this that make this world divided by racism!

[salo]

Originally Posted by jackson12345

...I try to be respectful at all times and have had some who don't normally date black give me a chance because of it. Once they see that I am an educated, articulate, respectful, and professional black man they are pleasantly surprised...

I sympathise with your plight but that's all you can do jackson. The more of you do that the less it becomes an issue. I wish you many pleasant encounters. Like Satan said, the black providers mostly have nba policies too. The blame is on the black men who screw it up for the rest of you. IMHO

[JackJohnson]

Originally Posted by satan666

now I have to touch base on this. as a white male im sure my opinion has no bearing on this. but there are women of every race that choose not to see black men because it is purely preference! and racism has absolutely nothing to do with it. if a lady is rude or derogatory in any way racism is probably a factor! but if a woman has an nba policy it can be the simple fact of preference in men not racism.

[snip]

Actually sorting people by race as a defining characteristic is the very definition of racism. It would be like an employer not hiring someone due to their race, and then saying, "well I'm not really racist, I just prefer to hire white people, due to my bad experiences with black people in the past."

Say that on the stand when you're being sued under Title VII, I triple dog dare you. Your lawyer will not be happy.

Imagine a day spa put out a sign that said, "Blacks not welcome." Imagine a lunch counter had a sign that said, "whites only." oh... wait...

A white girl I knew once stated she could not be racist, because she only had black lovers (like this inoculated her against racism). When asked why, she stated she preferred black men. Because they are black? "Well not ALL black men, but they had to be black." I then had to explain to her why that's racist. It inherently puts one race over another. (in this case, heavily influenced by the Mandingo/Buck Slave myth)

In that same vein, "black" women can be racist for denying AA men as a category, it's pretty simple. If you prohibit someone from something due to race, you're engaging in racism.

Make no mistake, it's the very definition of racism (again being a racIST can arguably be different - maybe). In fact, the belief that its not racism is a reason why "covert racism" is more insidious. You can still wake up in the morning and say, hey I'm not a racist, I just don't want my daughter to marry a black man. You know... its just a preference.

So I disagree, its exactly opinions like that, that using race as a sorting hat doesn't REALLY make something racism, it's only a preference, that keep racism going. I won't say being colorblind is a goal, as that whitewashes the fact that it's impossible, but to say that it's not racism just isn't factually accurate.

I understand it's an uncomfortable thought, no one wants to be labelled a rac"IST" (which is different than engaging in racism - one is a belief, one is a behavior). At the same time, you can't just say - some racism is better than other racism to make yourself feel better about it.

Sure... providers have a choice, ONLY because they aren't going to be sued like Target is if they put out a sign that says "WHITES ONLY." We know why that is... but picking your customers based on race is the same thing. We wouldn't tolerate it outside of this activity... for doctors, EMTs, etc... people that engage in other types of intimate activities.

Say what makes you feel comfortable with your choices... but its serious cognitive dissonance. But keep it 100... it's racism.

Pre-empt: I understand superiority is usually a part of racism's characteristics, but a preference of one over another assumes some stereotypes, choices, beliefs, etc. that inherently presumes some pretense of superiority at some level.

[salo]

So if a white escort has a couple of bad experiences with black med and wants to avoid that by not seeing black men anymore is she a racist? Not a rhetorical question.

[Jeopard1]

Hey, white male here. Humans are highly visual. Inferring properties based on appearances is what we do. Based on color, we can tell if an animal is venomous. That ability saved people for a very long time. That skill doesn't translate well in society, because there is no direct correlation between skin color and any other quality of a human being. It's a primitive reaction; it's not fair or accurate, but it's the eay we're built, and we can't turn it off.
Anecdotally, I've plenty of bad experiences with brown people, but I have a tenant of African descent who is a model human being. He's the best tenant I've ever had, and I'm not entirely certain that I give him preferential treatment because he's brown or because I genuinely like him. It's a slippery slope, but I feel there is a difference between being a racist and being a bigot. I can't help sorting out everything in my environment by its physical attributes, but I can treat every person equally.
I've also questioned some providers why they don't see African-Americans, and I've every time I've been told it's due to safety concerns.
Since this is a public forum, I'm assuming the request for my opinions is implied.

[badboy45tfm]

Alot does come from the provider having a black boy friend from what I have seen over the years. Some just personal preference others bad experience

[jackson12345]

Originally Posted by satan666

now I have to touch base on this. as a white male im sure my opinion has no bearing on this. but there are women of every race that choose not to see black men because it is purely preference! and racism has absolutely nothing to do with it. if a lady is rude or derogatory in any way racism is probably a factor! but if a woman has an nba policy it can be the simple fact of preference in men not racism.

closed mindedness like what you said Jackson is just as bad after all it is 2016 like you said!
to put yourself out there as a victim of circumstance is atrocious. everybody is entitled to their opinion. but for you to say that it is racist or bigotry because a woman chooses not to see you is just sad.

it is opinions like this that make this world divided by racism!

With all due respect, if you read my comment you would have noticed that I specified my comment by stating that this was discrimination and not racism, there is a difference. Discrimination is the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex. Whereas racism is prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior. I never said nor implied that these women discriminated because they had a superior complex, but I did point out that they unjustly prejudge an entire race of people because of the color of their skin. I can respect that people have their own preference, no problem with that. But to single out one race and say "you are not allowed" based on the color of your skin goes beyond preference, but it is discrimination. We have to call a spade a spade instead of justifying something that was a huge problem in our country for decades. Furthermore, I also stated that I have been hung up on, cussed at, and have been treated rudely when I did nothing to warrant that type of response, except be a color that I had no choice of being. While people are entitled to their preferences, it does not give them the right to disrespect us.

[jackson12345]

Originally Posted by salo

So if a white escort has a couple of bad experiences with black med and wants to avoid that by not seeing black men anymore is she a racist? Not a rhetorical question.

I would not say that is racism. Racism is based off of a superiority complex and not off of fear. Is it presumptive? Yes! Do I disagree with that presumption? No. I have my precautions with some providers because of my experiences as well, so I don't fault those who have had bad experiences. It actually hurts my heart to know that they have been treated wrongly by misrepresentative of my race. I think all people deserve to be treated with dignity and respect.

[khazard]

Well it is one of those things that sometimes is based on logic. You get burned by doing one thing over and over, eventually you want to seperate yourself from being in that position to get burned. It isn't fair to the ones that won't do it wrong, but obviously they have had more encounters with the wrong ones than the right ones. And sure they probably get burned by whites aswell but in the service industry it is a numbers game. If there are 20 black hobbyists an 100 white hobbyists, you get burned by 10 of each, where is the security in number? You have the choice of saying, well let's cut the ones that don't pay 50% of the time or the ones that DO pay 90% of the time. We could even go off of percentage and say both equally do not pay half the time. So cut out 10 people that do pay or cut out 50 people that also pay. Logically the 50% that is 50 people pays more than the 50% that is 10 people.

It's not so much about race than it is about crunching numbers. Just about all the girls here have a "No Froggy" policy. They could do the same with blacks. I bet with good solid references even the "No AA" could be ignored for you specifically. But in the newbie sector may be a risk they don't want to take.

Alot will come down to presentation. Good literacy, good language skills, and good appearance will go a long way to change the thinking. Getting rid of the stereotypical vocal and speech patterns, clothes, and over all appearance of "gangster" is what we need for them to do to successfully integrate into society in general. Not just black, but mexicans, arabs, and whom ever else.

Assessments are made first by appearance and first impression. Walk around dressed like a police officer and I will assume you are a police officer. Walk around in fatigues and I'll assume you are in a branch of the military. Walk around dressed like a gangster and I'll assume you are a gangster. An articulate person will get a better response than someone walking around using ebonics. It just common sense threat assessment that we have learned through media. It's not always right, but we see a lot when it is criminals.

The victim mentality doesn't help either. Educate your own people on elevating themselves. You are the only ones that can do it. Because when a white tries, it's "racism". We try to help you improve but instead the victim mentality comes out and we are just racists. That is a racist judgement from the black community against the white. As far as I am concerned we are one race, human. We all have good, bad, and preferences of the people we keep around us. Doesn't mean everything and everyone is racist.

[JackJohnson]

There really is too much going on in this thread to respond individually, I'll stand on my original post... cognitive dissonance is a powerful thing, but remember, if Target, based on their perception that African Americans are more likely to engage in shoplifting, etc put out a sign that said, "No Blacks" that wouldn't be acceptable, or legal. Hotels, restaurants, etc tried to do that for years... how quickly we forget.

Fear isn't a justification to discriminate, stereotypes aren't a justification, etc. These are the things people have told themselves for decades to make themselves comfortable with their own thoughts. I suspect many people here, based on what some of you are saying... and wow....are seeking to justify their own thoughts because they don't want the label. The label of being a bigot is bad...but if we are only expressing a "preference," or just reacting out of a fear based on experience... why... no racism exists.

It's a lie you tell yourself to avoid the discomfort of acknowledging your behavior. It's perfectly natural, and there have been studies on "ist" claims and dissonance throughout the psychological and communication literature.

Just make sure you read what you're saying, and think of it from the perspective of... am I just avoiding culpability for my own thoughts? Picking apart some of these posts will only engender another backlash of... I'M NOT A BIGOT DAMMIT! Ok, but that doesn't mean you're not engaging in racism.

To some extent that's inevitable because of how we work, but unlike other animals, we can make conscious choices. We don't justify rape based on the need to procreate. We can't justify racism due to the fact that difference has some inherent fear attached to it. We are better than our instincts.

I once heard a politician say, "I don't have anything against black people, I just wouldn't want my daughter to marry one." Yep, that's a preference alright, and it's pretty much racism.

In fact, if the hobby was legal, then yep, you couldn't say no African Americans under laws against discrimination. Just like Target...

Many of you seriously need to take a step back and evaluate your own thoughts and prejudices. It's impossible to be colorblind, that's just factual, and acting on those stereotypes problematizes your claims to be free from accountability.

We have to call it what it is... it's racism. You can tell yourself its just a "preference" but if that preference is based on race, it's discriminatory (I'll embrace that term, its legally correct... and I think engaging in racism is part of it), and it's the definition of racism.

Lastly... my pre-empt was ignored... when you "prefer" one thing over another, you assume that the characteristics of the "not preferred" thing is somehow lessor... its qualitative. That's intrinsically weighing one thing over the other, in this case race, which presumes superiority. Analogies notwithstanding, you are making a qualitative assessment... that's making one better... one superior. So you can't say "just because I don't think whites are superior to blacks, I can't engage in racism."

Oh yes you can, and it might be worse because you aren't even conscious of it.


It's ok to acknowledge it, recognize it and understand where it comes from. That's the first step to solving it. People can change their behavior.

Good discussion.

[jackson12345]

Originally Posted by JackJohnson

There really is too much going on in this thread to respond individually, I'll stand on my original post... cognitive dissonance is a powerful thing, but remember, if Target, based on their perception that African Americans are more likely to engage in shoplifting, etc put out a sign that said, "No Blacks" that wouldn't be acceptable, or legal. Hotels, restaurants, etc tried to do that for years... how quickly we forget.

Fear isn't a justification to discriminate, stereotypes aren't a justification, etc. These are the things people have told themselves for decades to make themselves comfortable with their own thoughts. I suspect many people here, based on what some of you are saying... and wow....are seeking to justify their own thoughts because they don't want the label. The label of being a bigot is bad...but if we are only expressing a "preference," or just reacting out of a fear based on experience... why... no racism exists.

It's a lie you tell yourself to avoid the discomfort of acknowledging your behavior. It's perfectly natural, and there have been studies on "ist" claims and dissonance throughout the psychological and communication literature.

Just make sure you read what you're saying, and think of it from the perspective of... am I just avoiding culpability for my own thoughts? Picking apart some of these posts will only engender another backlash of... I'M NOT A BIGOT DAMMIT! Ok, but that doesn't mean you're not engaging in racism.

To some extent that's inevitable because of how we work, but unlike other animals, we can make conscious choices. We don't justify rape based on the need to procreate. We can't justify racism due to the fact that difference has some inherent fear attached to it. We are better than our instincts.

I once heard a politician say, "I don't have anything against black people, I just wouldn't want my daughter to marry one." Yep, that's a preference alright, and it's pretty much racism.

In fact, if the hobby was legal, then yep, you couldn't say no African Americans under laws against discrimination. Just like Target...

Many of you seriously need to take a step back and evaluate your own thoughts and prejudices. It's impossible to be colorblind, that's just factual, and acting on those stereotypes problematizes your claims to be free from accountability.

We have to call it what it is... it's racism. You can tell yourself its just a "preference" but if that preference is based on race, it's discriminatory (I'll embrace that term, its legally correct... and I think engaging in racism is part of it), and it's the definition of racism.

Lastly... my pre-empt was ignored... when you "prefer" one thing over another, you assume that the characteristics of the "not preferred" thing is somehow lessor... its qualitative. That's intrinsically weighing one thing over the other, in this case race, which presumes superiority. Analogies notwithstanding, you are making a qualitative assessment... that's making one better... one superior. So you can't say "just because I don't think whites are superior to blacks, I can't engage in racism."

Oh yes you can, and it might be worse because you aren't even conscious of it.


It's ok to acknowledge it, recognize it and understand where it comes from. That's the first step to solving it. People can change their behavior.

Good discussion.

VERY well said!!!!! Love it!!!!

[salo]

What if it's not based on there perception alone but based on actual experience. I mean we're talking about letting someone come over and fuck you vs letting someone work your cash register or manage your store.

[Lamb66]

crickets from the ladies?