Need Advice on Navy ...

[Bebe Le Strange]

My son is in Navy boot camp at the moment. He is suppose to graduate next week.

He tested very high on several tests before going in and they wanted him for Naval Intelligence, as a cryptologist.

Many years ago, after my divorce when he was much younger, he had a rough patch and my ex husband insisted on him seeing this quack psychiatrist of his. The guy said he thought my son was depressed and tried to put him on Wellbutrin. My son took it for a week and got off it because he said it made him feel yucky. Ever since then he managed fine, and there have been no incidences with my son. I think as a teenager he was having a tough time dealing with mom and dad fighting, the fact I moved so far away and given all that, he was your typical teenage kid going through what I considered normal teenage stuff.

Well I just got a letter from my son, and he said that the Navy requested the records from that period. That doctor put in his letter that my son had ADHD (we were never told this), and had major depression. Now it looks like he may be discharged after graduation.

My son is trying to argue that this is a misdiagnosis, and I am hoping like hell they have an independent Naval Psychiatrist / Psychologist do testing on him to rule this crap out.

Does anyone have any information they could share on the protocol's concerning this in the Navy? I just can't believe that some quack doctor has screwed this up for him.

I guess at this point, I am going to try and help him prepare for the bad news if it does come. This kid is incredibly smart and gifted. His Dad and I are already writing him to stay strong through this, and know we can help him with college if the worst happens.

[Marshall]

Originally Posted by Bebe Le Strange

My son is in Navy boot camp at the moment. He is suppose to graduate next week.

He tested very high on several tests before going in and they wanted him for Naval Intelligence, as a cryptologist.

Many years ago, after my divorce when he was much younger, he had a rough patch and my ex husband insisted on him seeing this quack psychiatrist of his. The guy said he thought my son was depressed and tried to put him on Wellbutrin. My son took it for a week and got off it because he said it made him feel yucky. Ever since then he managed fine, and there have been no incidences with my son. I think as a teenager he was having a tough time dealing with mom and dad fighting, the fact I moved so far away and given all that, he was your typical teenage kid going through what I considered normal teenage stuff.

Well I just got a letter from my son, and he said that the Navy requested the records from that period. That doctor put in his letter that my son had ADHD (we were never told this), and had major depression. Now it looks like he may be discharged after graduation.

My son is trying to argue that this is a misdiagnosis, and I am hoping like hell they have an independent Naval Psychiatrist / Psychologist do testing on him to rule this crap out.

Does anyone have any information they could share on the protocol's concerning this in the Navy? I just can't believe that some quack doctor has screwed this up for him.

I guess at this point, I am going to try and help him prepare for the bad news if it does come. This kid is incredibly smart and gifted. His Dad and I are already writing him to stay strong through this, and know we can help him with college if the worst happens.

PDQd by the Navy.....long shot, but contact your Senator or Congressman....good luck.........

[DFW5Traveler]

Crypto-jobs in the military require a top secret clearance. Anyone diagnosed with specific psychological disorders or doing certain drugs are immediately disqualified for the jobs. Most of the time they can transfer to a different MOS, but if they won't move into a new specialty, it's a discharge usually for breach of contract.

I know that MEPS stations will ask about medical history and if you don't tell everything or if they get a different answer back from a doctor, it's also grounds for discharge. The only one that could change the outcome is usually the doctor that sent the info.

[Bebe Le Strange]

Well, this just breaks my heart. I am really hoping that since the Navy has invested so much in him thus far, they will try to salvage this. Even if it means placing him in another position.

[Mazomaniac]

I STRONGLY disagree with the previous opinions on this. It's my direct personal experience that simple psychiatric evaluation or treatment is not an automatic disqualifier here.

I've been through the SSBI process and I've held clearance. While I didn't have any psych treatment in my record I've had friends - one of whom is currently a high ranking navy intelligence officer - who did. It's certainly a factor that they will look at and they will judge it as part of the complete picture but if it's what you say it is they're not going to pitch the kid solely on that basis.

The key point here is to get it all out and give it to them. If they even suspect that there's something being held back then they will scratch him. Honesty gets a lot of cred with these folks. I've seen guys with domestic violence convictions get clearance after owning up to it. I've seen other guys with traffic tickets get the can for not disclosing them.

As a government contractor I and several of my people are required to hold clearance at different levels. It's a harsh process, but they're generally looking for long-term patterns, not one-off fuck-ups. Just make sure the kid listed everything he could possibly think of on his SF-86 form and that he supplements it if he remembers something he left off. They're going to do with him what they're gonna do with him, but if the rest of the record looks good I'd say he's got a decent chance of getting through with no issues.

Good luck,
Mazo.

[atlcomedy]

A lesson for everyone here: you can never hide from your medical record. If it happened/was diagnosed and was done under your name (e.g. vs. going to a free clinic and signing in as Jane Doe) it is with you. Know your record. Dispute it if appropriate. But be proactive about it.

After the fact saying, "Oh well Little LeStrange had some problems as a boy but he's better now so we didn't bother to list them on the form...." (not saying that is the case/generalizing) isn't all that helpful

[DFW5Traveler]

You can disagree if you like Maz, but it says right in the SF86 "US Code 18, Section 1001, that they can disqualify you for falsifying or concealing a material fact. It also states that any disqualification can be challenged. Waivers can and will be offered to Officers when their skill set falls in a shortage category. BTW, I don't know any people who advertise that they have an SSBI clearance. It's sort of frowned upon and makes you a target of foreign assets, just an FYI.

When the men in black show up at your doorstep or workplace questioning your friends/family/aquaintences, most peeps have a tendency to tell the truth when you are asked to sign a peice of paper swearing to tell the truth under penalty of perjury.

[acp5762]

Originally Posted by Bebe Le Strange

My son is in Navy boot camp at the moment. He is suppose to graduate next week.

He tested very high on several tests before going in and they wanted him for Naval Intelligence, as a cryptologist.

Many years ago, after my divorce when he was much younger, he had a rough patch and my ex husband insisted on him seeing this quack psychiatrist of his. The guy said he thought my son was depressed and tried to put him on Wellbutrin. My son took it for a week and got off it because he said it made him feel yucky. Ever since then he managed fine, and there have been no incidences with my son. I think as a teenager he was having a tough time dealing with mom and dad fighting, the fact I moved so far away and given all that, he was your typical teenage kid going through what I considered normal teenage stuff.

Well I just got a letter from my son, and he said that the Navy requested the records from that period. That doctor put in his letter that my son had ADHD (we were never told this), and had major depression. Now it looks like he may be discharged after graduation.

My son is trying to argue that this is a misdiagnosis, and I am hoping like hell they have an independent Naval Psychiatrist / Psychologist do testing on him to rule this crap out.

Does anyone have any information they could share on the protocol's concerning this in the Navy? I just can't believe that some quack doctor has screwed this up for him.

I guess at this point, I am going to try and help him prepare for the bad news if it does come. This kid is incredibly smart and gifted. His Dad and I are already writing him to stay strong through this, and know we can help him with college if the worst happens.

Anyone can have a rough patch in life where they might be somewhat deppressed. The reason the Navy wants medical records like this is to help them rule out the possibility of reocurring deppression that may cause your son to make poor decisions on the job. Another thing they are concerned about is any major psychosis which could manifest itself in the wake of stress or pressing circumstances. Bi-Polar Disorder is one illness that may be diagnosable and they definitely want to rule that out. You need to cooperate with the Navy and work with them. The Navy is one of the Better branches of the military and they do their best to keep work with families on any issue with a new recruit. Good luck to ya.

[incognito isis]

Originally Posted by Bebe Le Strange

My son is in Navy boot camp at the moment. He is suppose to graduate next week.

He tested very high on several tests before going in and they wanted him for Naval Intelligence, as a cryptologist.

Many years ago, after my divorce when he was much younger, he had a rough patch and my ex husband insisted on him seeing this quack psychiatrist of his. The guy said he thought my son was depressed and tried to put him on Wellbutrin. My son took it for a week and got off it because he said it made him feel yucky. Ever since then he managed fine, and there have been no incidences with my son. I think as a teenager he was having a tough time dealing with mom and dad fighting, the fact I moved so far away and given all that, he was your typical teenage kid going through what I considered normal teenage stuff.

Well I just got a letter from my son, and he said that the Navy requested the records from that period. That doctor put in his letter that my son had ADHD (we were never told this), and had major depression. Now it looks like he may be discharged after graduation.

My son is trying to argue that this is a misdiagnosis, and I am hoping like hell they have an independent Naval Psychiatrist / Psychologist do testing on him to rule this crap out.

Does anyone have any information they could share on the protocol's concerning this in the Navy? I just can't believe that some quack doctor has screwed this up for him.

I guess at this point, I am going to try and help him prepare for the bad news if it does come. This kid is incredibly smart and gifted. His Dad and I are already writing him to stay strong through this, and know we can help him with college if the worst happens.

Sir, I don't have any specific information to help you out. But I did have a female friend of mine who joined the Navy after hight school. They found out she was a bullimic and they immediately discharged her. From what I understand, they will discharge you over "any" mental ailment you have.

[Mazomaniac]

Originally Posted by DFW5Traveler

You can disagree if you like Maz, but it says right in the SF86 "US Code 18, Section 1001, that they can disqualify you for falsifying or concealing a material fact. It also states that any disqualification can be challenged. Waivers can and will be offered to Officers when their skill set falls in a shortage category.

Uh, yeah, that's what I said.

I don't see any indication in what Bebe wrote that the kid had lied on his SF-86. If he did then he's out for sure. But if the Navy knows about the med history then he must have told them. As long as he was up front about it and it's a minor thing in the past then I don't see them actioning it. I've had employees with a lot worse get by.

BTW, I don't know any people who advertise that they have an SSBI clearance. It's sort of frowned upon and makes you a target of foreign assets, just an FYI.

Now this is just silly.

Going through an SSBI is about the most public thing that can happen to you. They call your friends, your family, your former employers, the local police, your neighbors, etc, etc, etc. I can't think of a person I've shaken hands with who doesn't know I've been through it.

Besides, if you want to know who's been through a check all you have to do is look.

On sailors just check out the rating. Anybody with CT, MT, IS, or ST insignia is going to have been through clearance at some level as will anyone who's in the sub service or is directly attached to flag. You can spot who's been through an SSBI just by looking at their uniform as they walk down the street.

If you want to know who's been checked in the civilian side just pull out a government phone book and look at the job description. The civil service listings include which jobs require SSBI checks. You just have to look through the phone book to find those people.

Finally, if you want to see who's been through it in the corporate world just pop over to the GSA and search for companies who's FSC and NIIN commodity codes match commodities that involve classified materials. Better yet just search the contracts database for companies that sell classified and other security products to the government. It's a good bet that the senior management and a good chunk of the workers at those companies have clearances too. My company's in there. Anybody could tell I've been through SSBI just by looking in the GSA register.

Maybe the Lichtenstein secret police missed the fact that I've been through SSBI but just about everybody else knows it. Even my asshole neighbor who I never talk to because he cuts his grass at 7AM on Sundays knows. There's nothing secret about it at all.

Now what my clearance level was and whether I had compartment access . . . that's a different story. But it's an easy to find fact that I've been through the check.

Cheers,
Mazo.

[atlcomedy]

Originally Posted by Mazomaniac

But if the Navy knows about the med history then he must have told them. .

That is not accurate and the point of my prior post. Assuming he didn't go to a private clinic under a fake name...his medical history follow him whether or not he was completely forthcoming on his form....his social into the Medical Information Bureau and they got more info on him than they need or want.

[Mazomaniac]

Originally Posted by atlcomedy

That is not accurate and the point of my prior post.

Yes, it is accurate and no, I wasn't even responding to your post.

Assuming he didn't go to a private clinic under a fake name...his medical history follow him whether or not he was completely forthcoming on his form....his social into the Medical Information Bureau and they got more info on him than they need or want.

What you're saying here is exactly what the HIPAA law prevents. NOBODY - and that includes the US Navy - can get to those medical records except through the narrow doors allowed under HIPAA. Security clearance checks are not one of those narrow doors.

The Navy could not have gotten to his medical records without his authorization. As I said, if the Navy knows about the kid's history then he had to have told them about it when he filled out his SF-86 questionnaire at the start of his security check. When he did so he would have then been asked to fill out a HIPAA authorization so that they could go look at his medical records. They could not have gotten to them any other way barring a court order.

Don't believe me? Just look at the SF-86 form: http://www.opm.gov/forms/pdf_fill/sf86.pdf

The language in Section 21 on page 13 says everything you need to know about everything in this thread:

"Mental health counseling in and of itself is not a reason to revoke or deny a clearance.

In the last 7 years, have you consulted with a health care professional regarding an emotional or mental health condition or were you hospitalized for such a condition?

Answer "No" if the counseling was for any of the following reasons and was not court ordered:

1) strictly marital, family, grief not related to violence by you; or
2) strictly related to adjustments from service in a military combat environment.

If you answered "Yes," indicate who conducted the treatment and/or counseling, provide the following information, and sign the Authorization for Release of
Medical Information Pursuant to the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA)."

(Note that the bold is in the original.)

I don't know what else anybody needs to know about this. The military is telling you right on the form that:

A) they're not going to boot you just for seeing a shrink,
B) family issues are considered so minor that they don't even want you to list them, and
C) they can't go digging into your records until you sign the HIPAA authorization that allows them to.

End of thread guys. Nothing left to argue about. It's all right there on the form.

Like I said, the kid was obviously forthcoming about it and it seems to be a minor issue. I think they'll let him by unless there's something else on top of it that worries them.

Cheers,
Mazo.

[atlcomedy]

Maybe I was assuming a little...I am very familiar with HIPAA...I thought it went without saying somewhere along the way he signed the authorization

[Mazomaniac]

Originally Posted by atlcomedy

Maybe I was assuming a little...I am very familiar with HIPAA...I thought it went without saying somewhere along the way he signed the authorization

No sweat. Obviously a misunderstanding all the way around. We're cool.

[Mazomaniac]

Just wanted to add this:

If you're ever subject to one of these background checks please take this one word of advice. DON'T LIE.

The feds are amazingly good at this stuff. You will be caught 999 times out of 1,000. I've actually had two employees stand in front of me and say they could get through an SSBI without problem. Both of them turned out to have old criminal records in other states that they thought wouldn't be found. (One had two DUI's and the other a minor drug charge.) The FBI sniffed them out faster than a hound dog lookin' for a milk bone.

One example of how they get dirt on you is how they ask questions. They don't go up to your references and neighbors and say "Does he use drugs?". No. They go up and say "Let's talk about his drug use . . . " and wait for the reaction. If they even get a whiff that the interviewee is uncomfortable with the question they'll start to dig like gophers for anything they can find.

If you've got a record or you've used drugs, etc, etc, then it's almost a given that the feds will get that info out of one your friends or family. They won't even know they gave you up. The feds are just too good and smart and tricky with the questions to let one get by them.

(BTW, they usually straighten it out in the end and tell the interviewee that you don't really use drugs, etc, and that it's just how they ask the question. Even so, I'm sure half my neighborhood thinks that I've got a huge smack habit just from all the federal agents coming round to talk about me and narcotics. Price ya pay I guess.)

If you're honest with them it's usually no big deal. If ya lie, though, even a little, they'll bust your ass in half a second.

Cheers,
Mazo.