October 11 Republican Debate

[CuteOldGuy]

I know you have all been waiting anxiously for my analysis of the debate. I haven't watched any post debate commentary, so this is all my own.

Romney had his answers before any question was asked. He didn't answer questions, he just spewed his messagel

Cain's 999 plan really isn't too bad, but he can't explain it. I can explain it better than he can, and I only know what has been said about it. If this is your centerpiece, then learn what it means!

Perry has trouble putting sentences together. He starts new sentences before he finishes the old one. So I don't know what he said other than Texas has created a lot of jobs, and the answer to unemployment is the energy industry.

Santorum thinks he sounds smarter when he talks loud. He doesn't.

Ron Paul is looking older than usual. It's time to turn the banner of liberty over to someone younger, like Gary Johnson, who was not included in the debate.

Gingrich is the smartest one on the panel, but you can't trust him to walk the walk. If he gets power, it's compromise to the max.

Michelle Bachmann looked nice.

John Huntsman actually sounded rational, except for repeating the "I thought 999 was the cost of a pizza" joke. It only works once, pal. He would be a disastrous President, but he looked like the best of the bunch tonight.

I think Cain and Romney will drop some in the polls, and undecided will gain. This is going to be a miserable election for Republicans. They have an election they can't lose, but they will anyway.

And unless the Republicans nominate Gary Johnson, I won't vote for any of them. And I won't vote for Obama.

[TexTushHog]

I didn't watch the debate, but watched the baseball game instead. But I've read about eight to ten analysis articles. Pretty much what you indicated, except that they were more charitable toward Romney.

However, Cain's 999 proposal won't work whether he can explain it or not. It won't raise enough revenue to allow spending to go on at anywhere near current levels. And frankly, revenue should go up, not down (although spending, but not taxation, should go down after a few years if we can get the economy going again).

[CuteOldGuy]

Well, I'd give the 999 plan a shot over our current system in a heartbeat. I think the base would be broad enough to cover any perceived shortfall.

The media want Romney to be the nominee, and I don't know why. He was articulate, but never answered a question directly.

So how did the Rangers do? Since my Yankees are out, I'd like to see Texas go all the way.

[dilbert firestorm]

I'm not enthusiatic about the 999 plan but it is better than what we currently have.

9% national sales tax
9% income tax
9% business/corporate tax

[TexTushHog]

Rangers look off balance all night. Two runs won't win many playoff games. I can live with giving up five, although it's a bit more than I'd like. But tonight they just looked tired. But tomorrow is another day.

Actually the movement towards Romney is pretty interesting, and fairly inevitable, I think. The R's have tried on all the alternatives and have found that as much as they don't want Romney, none of the other candidates are Presidential timber. They've figured out that Perry is a lightweight, Bachmann is bat-shit crazy, Paul is a flake, Newt is a has been who just wants to sell a few more books, and that Cain knows about as much as running the government as my tom cat. In fact, I think it's the Cain boomlette/flavor of the month episode that started the stampede. The adults in the party realized what a unmitigated disaster that would be and decided that the TeaNut nonsense had run it's course and outlived it's usefulness and it was time for the big boys to step back in. This election is theirs to loose and they have no intention of letting a bunch of nitwit ideologues take it away from the guys who paid good money to put the party apparatchiks where they are.

And I can't conceivably see how Cain's plan can raise enough money. And even if it did, it would shift such an incredibly unjust portion of the tax burden onto the working class, I just can't see even the Republicans being arrogant enough to think that they could get away with passing it. But it would save me around $100,000 -150,000 or more in income tax and wouldn't cost me much in sales tax. So I don't know why I give a shit. If those making under $250 - 350,000 want to increase their taxes and cut mine, I guess that they're welcome to do so. The dumb shits.

The corporate 9% tax is pretty vague. Bruce Bartlett, former Bush administration official, notes that it's almost a gross receipts tax. "The tax would apply to gross sales less dividends paid and all purchases from other companies, including investment goods. Thus, there would be no deduction for wages." That would be very troublesome for me if it applied to Sub-S corporations (who knows since the details are so sketchy), but not fatal as I can always wind down my S-Corp and run as a sole proprietorship or a LLP. But it sure would penalize service industries, where the U.S. has a competitive advantage right now. And it would cause lots of businesses to lay off marginal employees.

See this link for Bartlett's article:

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/20...cain-tax-plan/

[TexTushHog]

Originally Posted by dilbert firestorm

I'm not enthusiatic about the 999 plan but it is better than what we currently have.

9% national sales tax
9% income tax
9% business/corporate tax

Not for people making less than about $250 - $350,000, it's not. You get taxed at about 18%. Once when you make it and once when you spend it. And it won't be 8%. It will have to be more like 12 - 15%.

[CuteOldGuy]

Well, I originally predicted that Perry would get the nomination, but he really blew his opportunity. Not that I ever supported him, I was simply using my political precognition ability, which seems to have atrophied along with some other, uh, more personal skills. But I digress.

Cain needs to publish more details of the plan. Almost anything would be better than our current system, but there needs to be more detail, and he needs to be better prepared to answer questions on it.

It's moot, Romney will get the nomination.

[TexTushHog]

No doubt as with anything complex, the devil is in the details. And the bottom line is that Cain has no details to release. It hasn't been thought out at all. It's back of the napkin bullshit and water and always will be.

[Laz]

I agree that Romney will probably get the nomination. I can not support the 999 plan because I do not trust congress to limit themselves to that. As for it not raising enough money to support current spending there are no reasonable plans that can support current spending.

I would like to see people push the fair tax. That would allow the taxation of foreign manufactured goods equal to US manufactured goods. That should help US manufacturing recover.

[Whirlaway]

The money-fix is in; Romney is going to be the nominee...which is ok; let's get the battle/organizing motivated over increasing Tea Party seats in Congress.......

Romney is a wet blanket and will go the way the wind blows; so I say make the Tea Party Conservatives the weatherman !

Cut spending. Cut the size of Federal Government. Cut regulations. Cut taxes !!!!!!!!!!

[TexasT]

I agree with the OP's assessment of the evening, except for his fascination with Gary Johnson, whom I like but doesn't have a chance in hell. I also like Bachmann's new coiffure. Maybe her and Perry can stroke each others hair over cocktails while they discuss how it ended so quickly and so badly for them.

The debates are starting to bore me. Romney will become the nominee, with Cain putting up a valiant effort. Obama wins the election. Four more years of bitching, as the GOP starts planning for Chris Christie on Day One of BO's second term. Nothing gets done, except the price of blowjobs drops.

[CuteOldGuy]

If we keep only supporting those who can get the nomination, we will get the same establishment crap we have gotten for 50 years. We have to break out of this "Well, he's establishment, but he can get elected" BS. We have to do better, or we will cease to America.

[CPT Savajo]

I don't think Herman Cains 999 plan is going to work "if" he got into office, which I don't think he will. A 9% national sales tax on existing taxes of 9%-10% would be horrible for an economy supposedly "in recovery" if you can call it that. Maybe some people would enjoy Cains 666 plan but not me. I'm sure that would greatly help out the housing industry which is a nightmare overall (sarcasm). Buying stuff out in the economy with a 18%-20% tax is not going to be welcomed with open arms. If Cain gets into office lookout because a revolt would happen in this country that makes Occupy Wall Street look like Disney Land!

[CuteOldGuy]

Ok, first, understand that the 999 plan would eliminate the tax code, thereby eliminating up to 23% of embedded taxes and compliance costs driving prices down by close to that percentage. When you add a 9% sales tax to that, the price level actually goes down, not up. Add to that, the provision that would make Congress pass any increases by a 2/3 majority, people will know and understand how and why their taxes are being raised. Our current system is so convoluted and filled with loopholes, no one really knows what taxes they are paying.

As far as the 9% income tax, understand that the 15.3% payroll tax will be eliminated, so paychecks will go up, not down. (Yes, I hear the fiction that the employer pays half that, but ultimately that is part of the employee's compensation package, so they are paying it with their labor, then the employer passes it on.)

I'm not sure how the business tax would work, but it can't be worse than what we have, and GE might actually have to pay under this plan.

So, lower rates, lower prices, no sales tax on used goods, broader base, economic growth, less government intrusion, transparency in taxation, congress taking responsibility for their actions - sounds a hell of a lot better to me than our current system.

Since the sales tax would not be applied outside the US, imagine if GM, Ford, Chrysler, Boeing, et.al. could reduce their compliance costs by upwards of 20%? We would immediately start balancing our trade deficit, and increase manufacturing in the US. We could undersell Toyota, Nissan, Airbus and many more on the international market.

Yes, there are other details which need to come out, but if you prefer the current system over this, you are delusional. The current system is in place primarily for POWER, not revenue. It is designed so businesses can buy preferences from Congress, and hide them in massive amounts of undecipherable regulations. This helps the rich get richer, keeps the poor down, and fills the egos and pockets of Congress. The IRS code is an insult to good government and a free republic.

[wellendowed1911]

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

If we keep only supporting those who can get the nomination, we will get the same establishment crap we have gotten for 50 years. We have to break out of this "Well, he's establishment, but he can get elected" BS. We have to do better, or we will cease to America.

COG- what happened with Perry being lock and key to not only win the GOP nomination but the entire Presidency???? I still say it's a little early- but it is Romney's to lose- no one Cain has a chance. I honestly don't see Romney defeating Obama- as Whirlway mentioned and oddly I agree Romney goes whatever way the wind is blowing and I think he's the candidate that tries to play to every side and is surely not a true conservatives that the GOP wants- also if you look at my post many months ago I told everyone that 3 things will hurt Romney: 1) he's super rich- his "let's help the middle class" won't be taking seriously- remember he was scolded at his own debates for suggesting that we give taxbreaks to corporations: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLS8I...el_video_title However, I do at least give Romney the courage for mentioning tax breaks for middle class in many of these debates. 2) Romneycare- way too similar to Obamacare- basically the blueprint for Obamacare- Romney was once asked: "If your Health care plan did so well in the State of Mass shouldn't be a model to be used in the rest of the United States and Romney answered :"Yes".- Also Romney has a history of flip flopping- he was once for abortion now he's against it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MofWP...2D12601337F7E2
3) Romney is a Mormon- trust me this is going to be difficult for people to vote for him- I don't think it should- but in America a lot of people view the LDS as a cult- and with the media giving this issue some spot light I am pretty sure people are going to read up on Mormonism and take the view of it being a cult- I mean this was a denomination that up until 1978 Blacks could not be Priest and the Adam-God doctrine- I think in the long run it will hurt Romney. If Romney wins Presidency- at the inauguration will he ask to take the oath on the Joseph Smith version of the Bible???