Mixing Business with Pleasure. / Too many public failures seem to indicate times have changed.

[Whispers]

When I joined ASPD at the end of 1999 it was a growing community in Austin but even back then when people got together for luncheons, dinners, parties and clubbing there was a group of 40-50 people that always seemed present with about 30% in flux.

It led to a lot of camaraderie, friendships and relationships developing. Weekend Pool Parties and Amber's Hot Tub Parties were the Best. Wild Flowers and Amazing John knew how to host their clients as well.

I've always been a social person and participated in the social seen with other johns and whores for most of the 17 years in communities first in Houston, then San Antonio, Dallas, Miami/Fort Lauderdale, Los Angeles and then here in Austin.

A few of us were talking recently about the "good ole days" when we hung out every few weeks doing dinners, karaoke, going to clubs and more.

Most people will agree that it is a huge mistake to mix business with pleasure... I tend to agree that for most it has always been a very bad idea.

Over those years I entered into 4 off the clock relationships with whores I met on ASPD or ECCIE that lasted from as short as 7 months to as long as 4 years...

Yes. I "dated", befriended, romanced, partnered up with, etc... a few whores over the years.... There is NOTHING I preach against I probably haven't done and experienced the negative results of.


Only 1 of the 4 ended badly and it was actually one of the most public (boardwise) breakups with name calling, ugliness, threats and crazy in person antics (she was carried by management from a strip club I was at with others when I refused to talk to her and she got past the door girl). I remain friends with the other 3.

Ever since this came up in conversation recently with a few that participated in all the "socializing" we were doing 67 years ago it has been on my mind.

What has changed?

Over all those years I only know of ONE couple from the community that met, did business, became friends, played, loved and went off to be together never to be heard from again.

BUT..... Over the years most of those things ended quietly without all the social shaming and accusations that seem to accompany it these days.

In the Alert Section today are two active discussions / "alerts" for persons done wrong and a couple of others less than a month old. We see them regularly though where the dirty laundry is making the boards.

Any ideas on why?

Why such ugliness these days from people that come together initially to have fun?

Why so many people that lack humility or feel shame that need to express themselves so publicly?


Having been a guy that "wronged" a whore that had feelings for me once that was the subject of her huge meltdown I found it amazing she wanted it all out there. My crime was taking my wife on a cruise she thought she should have went on with me. (A few months later another member spent 7 of the most uncomfortable days of his life on a cruise ship with her).

Some people seem to handle it.....

Most don't.... this forum has posts today from multiple individuals involved in these messes in the last year.....

Want to share?

A few have talked about "hanging out more". Doing the kinds of things we used to.

But can anyone really do so anymore? Do we have so many unstable people that can't be spotted ahead of time?

I have a few of my own ideas on what made it work better in the past as well as how to avoid some of the pitfalls I'll share if anyone else chooses to discuss the subject.....

But over to all for now.

[Dev Null]

The human psyche is a scary thing. I don't think that anyone consciously goes into a relationship planning to go bat-shit crazy on anyone else. It just happens because sometimes we're hard-wired that way.

I remember reading a comic book when I was a kid where a woman tricked the hero into marrying her while wearing a face mask and pretending to be someone else. That worried me enough that I asked my mom if that ever happened in real life. I don't remember getting a coherent answer from her, and in retrospect, I should have asked my dad - looking back, that's probably what he thought had happened to him, at least metaphorically.

We all wear masks of various types, and one reason the hobby is so useful is that it gives us the chance to try out different roles and different experiences to find out who we really are.

As to why shit seems to be happening more frequently now than in the past, I wouldn't look at it as a trend necessarily. Sure a lot has changed since ASPD days, some things for better, others for worse.

It's just the nature of random variation that there will be bursts of whatever it is that we are focused on. We are complicated creatures, and nothing is permanent. Ride the wave when you see it towering over you. There is relative calm on the other side.

I'm sorry that I can't be a part of the community gatherings, but really one or two people of the female persuasion is plenty for me. I might be more inclined to mix with other hobbyists if there weren't so much drama emanating from the testosterone end of the spectrum here.

[Skip_8]

Dev Null makes a good point about that veneer whores and us tricks must put to get along in the course of our business transactions.

Once a trick and whore get comffortable by crossing those "professional" boundaries, their true selves start to peek out.

I would argue that due to the nature of the work, there is a disproprotiate number of Crazy Ass women that go into whoring VS the number of men that see girls for P4P.

Now, I'm not talking about sexual degenerates that like to get pissed and shit on or like to hurt other people such as Sadists.

I'm talking about people with genuine mental disorders that allow them to function but can be triggered to do some crazy ass shit.

Perhpas the social media is partly to blame as eveyone is more comfortable putting their personal business online. Therefore, taking a perceived grievance online is only natural.

Compounded by mental instability, it's a recipe for disgtaster that will manifest more often.

I wish we could cat /dev/null > $CRAZY_WHORE

[Dev Null]

Originally Posted by Skip_8

I wish we could cat /dev/null > $CRAZY_WHORE

LOL, someone finally figured out my moniker.

[Dev Null]

I would like to suggest that maybe, just maybe, part of the problem might be the way we frame the hobby.

For example, I'm uncomfortable with the word "whore". I associate it with "street whores" or "the come-on's from the whores on seventh avenue". The connotations are decidedly negative. I'm much more comfortable with sex-positive terms like "provider" or "sex worker".

Is it possible for us to change our hobby language to one that's more accepting, and not just accepting, but one that celebrates and more accurately reflects the beauty of what is offered to us?

Sure they do it for money. So did every artist throughout history. If you don't think there's an art to it, try it out yourself and see what kind of results you get.

I consider it an art form, and I just don't think that "whore" is an accurate description. You can't put chicken shit in and expect to get chicken salad out.

[Whispers]

Originally Posted by Dev Null

I would like to suggest that maybe, just maybe, part of the problem might be the way we frame the hobby.

For example, I'm uncomfortable with the word "whore". I associate it with "street whores" or "the come-on's from the whores on seventh avenue". The connotations are decidedly negative. I'm much more comfortable with sex-positive terms like "provider" or "sex worker".

Is it possible for us to change our hobby language to one that's more accepting, and not just accepting, but one that celebrates and more accurately reflects the beauty of what is offered to us?

Sure they do it for money. So did every artist throughout history. If you don't think there's an art to it, try it out yourself and see what kind of results you get.

I consider it an art form, and I just don't think that "whore" is an accurate description. You can't put chicken shit in and expect to get chicken salad out.

Please expand on that.

In what way does my use of the word whore relate to men and women pairing up, becoming involved, hurting each other on some personal level and then striking out at each other here on line?

Some of these "alerts" we see or explosive behaviors come from people "hurt" because they fell for/loved another member here that they feel betrayed by for some reason. The participants in these public "breakups" are not typical people that engage in the same practice are they?

Originally Posted by Skip_8

Dev Null makes a good point about that veneer whores and us tricks must put to get along in the course of our business transactions.

Once a trick and whore get comfortable by crossing those "professional" boundaries, their true selves start to peek out.

I would argue that due to the nature of the work, there is a disproportionate number of Crazy Ass women that go into whoring VS the number of men that see girls for P4P.

Now, I'm not talking about sexual degenerates that like to get pissed and shit on or like to hurt other people such as Sadists.

I'm talking about people with genuine mental disorders that allow them to function but can be triggered to do some crazy ass shit.

Perhaps the social media is partly to blame as everyone is more comfortable putting their personal business online. Therefore, taking a perceived grievance online is only natural.

Compounded by mental instability, it's a recipe for disaster that will manifest more often.

I wish we could cat /dev/null > $CRAZY_WHORE

I think you hit on two relevant points here..... The very people participating are too "damaged" from the start and are not healthy enough to engage in relationships with others here because of their personal issues.

Social media does seem to bring out all the dirty laundry these days.

[Dev Null]

One aspect of social media is slut-shaming - not that it didn't exist before, but it reinforces our tendency to categorize. We could throw the madonna-whore complex in if we want to further psychoanalyze.

But the obvious result is that people tend to isolate more. You go to a coffee shop nowadays and people aren't talking, they're texting. There are a lot of social cues missing when you reduce communication to words and emoticons.

We're also moving into the Roe v Wade generation. According to Freakonomics, the fact that a greater proportion of kids are planned and wanted may be related to a drastic reduction in violent crime. If that's the case, we may be looking at a new generation with enough self-respect to want more than a quid pro quo relationship.

Sure the hobby is an outlier in the social spectrum, and there's a great divide between correlation and causation. The root cause is most likely unknown and unknowable.

But what's your unified field theory, Whispers?

[Smpslt7]

Nice post Dev Nul.

[knotty man]

Originally Posted by Dev Null

I would like to suggest that maybe, just maybe, part of the problem might be the way we frame the hobby.

For example, I'm uncomfortable with the word "whore". I associate it with "street whores" or "the come-on's from the whores on seventh avenue". The connotations are decidedly negative. I'm much more comfortable with sex-positive terms like "provider" or "sex worker".

Is it possible for us to change our hobby language to one that's more accepting, and not just accepting, but one that celebrates and more accurately reflects the beauty of what is offered to us?

Sure they do it for money. So did every artist throughout history. If you don't think there's an art to it, try it out yourself and see what kind of results you get.

I consider it an art form, and I just don't think that "whore" is an accurate description. You can't put chicken shit in and expect to get chicken salad out.

So if a lady is slow. Instead of running a reviews special. She should call it a starving artist show.
Eccies very own Sami show

[Treetop78759]

It is impossible to have a healthy interdependent relationship unless we have a healthy independent relationship with ourselves.

[VictoriaLyn]

Originally Posted by Treetop78759

It is impossible to have a healthy interdependent relationship unless we have a healthy independent relationship with ourselves.

I so wish more people understood that

[lizshue81]

Originally Posted by Treetop78759

It is impossible to have a healthy interdependent relationship unless we have a healthy independent relationship with ourselves.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...yourself-first

"So, forget about loving anyone else. In the end, if your core sense of self is painfully disturbed or deficient, you won’t be able to love yourself. But here it should be added that psychotherapy has many effective ways of rectifying an impoverished self-regard—though, granted, it’s always a challenge to transform something so deeply embedded in a person’s self-image. Treatment, therefore, rarely responds to any brief, “band-aid” type of therapy."

[FirePhoenix]

Healthy independent relationship within ourself is the hardest thing to achieve. Often times people fear or reject the faults and the reasons behind those faults they have within themselves. Other times a person cannot truly take a compliment because they feel unworthy of it. In most cases people can only take the good of what's being said about them and seek more ego inflation .trump is a good exsample of that.

[Dev Null]

Originally Posted by Dev Null

If that's the case, we may be looking at a new generation with enough self-respect to want more than a quid pro quo relationship.

Looking back, I disagree with myself. I'm assuming a correlation between self-respect and the absence of quid-pro-quo. Not that the association doesn't exist, but my assumption may be invalid.

[Tequila Rose]

Most people will agree that it is a huge mistake to mix business with pleasure... I tend to agree that for most it has always been a very bad idea.

Over those years I entered into 4 off the clock relationships with whores I met on ASPD or ECCIE that lasted from as short as 7 months to as long as 4 years...


Only 1 of the 4 ended badly and it was actually one of the most public (boardwise) breakups with name calling, ugliness, threats and crazy in person antics (she was carried by management from a strip club I was at with others when I refused to talk to her and she got past the door girl). I remain friends with the other 3.

Ever since this came up in conversation recently with a few that participated in all the "socializing" we were doing 67 years ago it has been on my mind.

What has changed?

Everything has changed. People don't communicate the way they did 67 years ago. Hell people don't communicate the way they did 15 years ago. Internet changed things drastically. People used to get together to make friends and communicate. Now days it is all the click of a button. Before if you got mad you dialed a phone and talked to ONE person. Now you get mad you can post for EVERYONE to see. You used to have to go confront said person face to face. Driving giving you time to cool off and think. Weigh how things would go in person how it would impact both sides. Now you can hide behind a screen and safely insult while still mad.


Why such ugliness these days from people that come together initially to have fun?

Why so many people that lack humility or feel shame that need to express themselves so publicly?


These days with reality TV and instant gratification it's accepted. Paris Hilton, Miley Cyrus, and even political leaders are made more famous by acting this way. Why wouldn't the people who see it everyday being accepted feel it's ok?

I enjoy the meets that are hosted. I think it's a great way to meet people in the community and get a feel for who you like and don't like. I also like that they keep the lines straight. Everyone knows why we are all there. I enjoy grabbing lunch and hanging out with some individuals on a friendship level. However some I would never spend time with outside of Hobby related things. Some people are not people I would trust or get along with on a personal level. Some people can't keep things professional. Buisness and pleasure can be mixed with some individuals others no. It's not so black and white as can or can't for everyone.