Abortion

[Levianon17]

Originally Posted by Tiny

Why is abortion clearly wrong?

Please see eccieuser's eating babies links. If God created hamsters that devour some of their young, why should we necessarily believe she'd disapprove of aborting a fetus that weighs less than 0.5 ounces? That's the average weight at 12 weeks from what I'm Googling.

Do you support a Women's decision to have an Abortion in the Third Trimester like lets say the 36th week?

[txdot-guy]

Originally Posted by Levianon17

Do you support a Women's decision to have an Abortion in the Third Trimester like lets say the 36th week?

If the life of the mother is at risk or if the baby is going to die anyway because of a congenital condition then sure. But I can’t think of another reason off the top of my head.

Do you think there are any women or doctors out there who would abort a healthy baby at 36 weeks?

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by Levianon17

Do you support a Women's decision to have an Abortion in the Third Trimester like lets say the 36th week?

No, unless health is a legitimate and serious issue. For example, if the woman’s life were in jeopardy, I’d support her decision. Women should be able to make up their minds by the 12th week IMHO. I could see however giving them 15 weeks, as suggested by Trump. About 7% of women don’t know they’re pregnant at the 12th week.

I answered your question. What’s your answer to mine?

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by txdot-guy

Do you think there are any women or doctors out there who would abort a healthy baby at 36 weeks?

You’re starting to sound like a Libertarian. That’s a compliment.

[txdot-guy]

Originally Posted by Tiny

Take Txdot for example. Through a combination of Socratic teaching and undetected (until now) subtle psychological manipulation, CreatedInSpace and I have managed to get him to a reasonable position on abortion while making him think it was his idea all along. Unfortunately he now believes the 15 weeks is a Democratic Party idea, fought tooth and nail by Republicans. So there's still work to do.

I believe that 15 weeks is a good limit for at will abortions but I also believe that 16 to 24 weeks for rape and incest and up to birth for health of the mother or fetal anomalies that would severely impact the child’s life and health. That should be left up to the mother and her doctor. That’s what I see as reasonable.

I said that I believe that Democrats could support a compromise bill if only they could trust conservative religious republican representatives. But I don’t know what they would consider to be a compromise. I just think that they are the more reasonable party.

Originally Posted by Tiny

While as noted in my tongue-in-cheek reply to McCain above, I agree with your conclusion as to what kind of compromise is reasonable, I disagree with some of your other points. Most of the people in America who reject birth control are Catholics. And more Catholics are Democrats than Republicans:

That’s true but all the states that ban abortion are controlled by republicans. My guess is that most of them are conservative christians.

Originally Posted by Tiny

But I really don't see Republicans trying to do that, and in any event a ban would never get through Congress and signed into law. And if it were, would it be Constitutional? Didn't Dobbs determine the states should decide on abortion laws?

I believe both sides are culpable here, and it's not fair to just blame Republicans. As I believe Levianon has said, the politicians want to divide us.

The dobbs decision says

Dobbs v. Jackson states that the Constitution does not confer a right to abortion; and, the authority to regulate abortion is “returned to the people and their elected representatives.”

That means that a federal law would override state law on this matter. In fact the reason why democrats didn’t vote for the last 15 week bill Lindsay Graham proposed is because it would leave in place more restrictive state laws.

The republican party has courted christian evangelicals and the pro-life movement for decades. They packed the courts both state and federal with pro-life judges as well. I certainly blame them for the position we’re in now.

[CreatedInSpace]

Originally Posted by txdot-guy

I believe that 15 weeks is a good limit for at will abortions but I also believe that 16 to 24 weeks for rape and incest and up to birth for health of the mother or fetal anomalies that would severely impact the child’s life and health. That should be left up to the mother and her doctor. That’s what I see as reasonable.

Totally agree, although not quite sure why the 16-24 for rape and incest is necessary. Even with, this is a reasonable policy imo.

I said that I believe that Democrats could support a compromise bill if only they could trust conservative religious republican representatives. But I don’t know what they would consider to be a compromise. I just think that they are the more reasonable party.

Democrats would not support the policy you stated above, at all. They are as captured by radicals as the other side. Any restrictions for any reason will be outright rejected. Someone once asked Harris what she felt the cut off date should be (I’ll see if I can find the clip). She bobbed and weaved around the question and simply wouldn’t answer it when pressed harder.

When you get down to brass tacks, the only politician right now with a sane policy is Trump. Regardless of the media onslaught, his recent statements on the matter are by far the closest to what the majority of people think, including you and I.

Edit: Harris imitates Gregory Hines
https://www.foxnews.com/video/6336939549112

[Levianon17]

Originally Posted by Tiny

No, unless health is a legitimate and serious issue. For example, if the woman’s life were in jeopardy, I’d support her decision. Women should be able to make up their minds by the 12th week IMHO. I could see however giving them 15 weeks, as suggested by Trump. About 7% of women don’t know they’re pregnant at the 12th week.

I answered your question. What’s your answer to mine?

Don't read into it, perfectly healthy mother, perfectly healthy baby. Abortion is fine at 12 weeks but not at 36, why not? I am going to take a wild guess it's because of stage of development even though both a 12 week and a 36 week fetus aren't living outside of it's mother's womb. So if Abortion is wrong at 36 weeks it's also wrong at 12 weeks.

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by Levianon17

Don't read into it, perfectly healthy mother, perfectly healthy baby. Abortion is fine at 12 weeks but not at 36, why not? I am going to take a wild guess it's because of stage of development even though both a 12 week and a 36 week fetus aren't living outside of it's mother's womb. So if Abortion is wrong at 36 weeks it's also wrong at 12 weeks.

Again, why is abortion clearly wrong in your view? The closest you've gotten to an explanation is saying you're Christian, which implies you believe abortion is contrary to your religious beliefs. If that's the key, why is abortion wrong according to the tenets of Christianity?

As to your post above, compare a 12 week, 0.5 ounce fetus to a full grown cow. To me, the prohibition on slaughter of cattle and sale of beef in parts of India makes a lot more "sense" than prohibiting abortions in the first trimester. A cow's nervous system and brain are much better developed than those of an embryo or first-trimester fetus.

And the Indians are a lot laxer than Texans. I'm sure they'd never dream of giving a 99 year sentence to a veterinarian who euthanized a cow with cancer. Or of imposing severe penalties on travel agents who sell tickets to customers who leave India to eat meat.

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by CreatedInSpace

When you get down to brass tacks, the only politician right now with a sane policy is Trump.

Not the only, but one of the minority. His position on abortion, like Biden's, has always been what's politically expedient. But I suspect he actually does believe what he's saying now -- restrictions at the state level after 15 weeks make sense.

Biden on the other hand is letting Kamala Harris do the heavy lifting on this because in his heart he's pro-life. He initially opposed Roe vs. Wade and funding for abortion in the case of rape and incest. More recently he flip flopped on the Hyde amendment, because he figured it would help him in the 2020 Democratic primaries.

[Levianon17]

Originally Posted by Tiny

Again, why is abortion clearly wrong in your view? The closest you've gotten to an explanation is saying you're Christian, which implies you believe abortion is contrary to your religious beliefs. If that's the key, why is abortion wrong according to the tenets of Christianity?

As to your post above, compare a 12 week, 0.5 ounce fetus to a full grown cow. To me, the prohibition on slaughter of cattle and sale of beef in parts of India makes a lot more "sense" than prohibiting abortions in the first trimester. A cow's nervous system and brain are much better developed than those of an embryo or first-trimester fetus.

And the Indians are a lot laxer than Texans. I'm sure they'd never dream of giving a 99 year sentence to a veterinarian who euthanized a cow with cancer. Or of imposing severe penalties on travel agents who sell tickets to customers who leave India to eat meat.

First of all Abortion doesn't have to be "Religious Based". Abortion is also based on other aspects which make it inherently wrong. Abortion is essentially the killing of an innocent biological human being. Stage of development doesn't disregard person hood. If our "Personal Identity" tells us it's wrong to kill those who are already born then it's also wrong to kill those in the womb. All those who are born have a future Abortion deprives the unborn a Future like ours. You mentioned something about Cattle in your post, animals don't have a future like ours. The unborn have a right to life Abortion deprives them of that. That's why it's wrong.

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by Levianon17

First of all Abortion doesn't have to be "Religious Based". Abortion is also based on other aspects which make it inherently wrong. Abortion is essentially the killing of an innocent biological human being. Stage of development doesn't disregard person hood. If our "Personal Identity" tells us it's wrong to kill those who are already born then it's also wrong to kill those in the womb. All those who are born have a future Abortion deprives the unborn a Future like ours. You mentioned something about Cattle in your post, animals don't have a future like ours. The unborn have a right to life Abortion deprives them of that. That's why it's wrong.

Fair enough, good answer, although I don’t agree. I don’t believe we should have capital punishment. I’m sure people here could pick apart that belief like we’ve been picking apart yours.

[Yssup Rider]

This is not for the government to decide. Or zealots or idealogues. Period.

It is and should always be a decision by a woman and her doctor.

[Levianon17]

Originally Posted by Tiny

Fair enough, good answer, although I don’t agree. I don’t believe we should have capital punishment. I’m sure people here could pick apart that belief like we’ve been picking apart yours.

I don't understand what Capital punishment has to do with my post? In order for you to successfully "Pick Apart" my belief you would have to justify Abortion and you haven't and you can't.

[Levianon17]

Originally Posted by Yssup Rider

This is not for the government to decide. Or zealots or idealogues. Period.

It is and should always be a decision by a woman and her doctor.

I agree Government should stay out of it. The Medical Community shouldn't.

[CreatedInSpace]

I don’t think anyone’s view has been picked apart, they’re just differences of opinion. Abortion, at any point, is obviously ending a life. Some people are totally ok with that, some totally against it, and some only up to a certain point in gestation. People can disagree on the issue and still have a valid argument.