Prime examples of the dangerous costs of religion:

[WTF]

Originally Posted by John Bull

WTF you bring up your pro-murder of children mantra every time one of us brings up the fact that the Tea Party is a non-religious semi-organization. I think a lot of you Pro-Murder folks would take a different path if you had to take that kids head outside the V canal and stick a pair of scissors into its brain.
Bebe says that all women have the right to kill that kid. OK Bebe, get your scissors ready doll and stick it in. Oh, you can't do it! You'd rather a doc do it! OK, then let's put the doc in jail for life. Murder is murder no matter what you call it or how you rationalize it.
Rant over! Sorry that some of you are offended. The dead kids were offended worse.

So it is now Pro Murder instead of Pro choice? Hot Damnnnnnnn

Depending on the trimester, that statement has validity. If you believe inception or test tube babies are murdered I would have to respectfully disagree. I believe in the morning after pill and limited first tri.

Had you understood the jest of my statement, you would have noted that my real point was not to bash the good intentions of the Tea Folks but their seemingly inconsistent stance of taking power from the Federal Government and then giving it to the state another government entity. How does that mesh with more personal freedom? It was not a pro abortion post. I do understand though you were busy with atlcomedy's old thread bumps!

[Bebe Le Strange]

Originally Posted by ninasastri

since religions are beliefs theism and atheism are beliefs the exact opposite of what you stated can be a POV too. Just replace atheist with theist (religious believer) and you have the same valid POV. you can`t argue beliefs.

Originally Posted by ninasastri

Bebe i know what you mean but atheism is also a belief. what you state is non-believe or sophism or scientific research. Believers never search for fact. atheists don`t necessarily seek truth anymore than theists do. Its very simple to explain. If you look at a word on how it is combined you see that a-thei -sm includes theo which is god. it defines itself thru the " non belief in god" which is a belief per se. you cannot really say that "god does not exist" in the same way that you can`t say "god does exist". Both are belief-systems. The existence of god is not to be proofen since real science can`t proof anything. Only make references and point out trúths valid within certain reference frames.
So - talking about scientific approval that "god does not exist" its not possible. You cannot say with certainty that "god does not exist" since no one has ever seen proof of it in a certain frame of reference. You can`t question a belief because a belief is based on science fiction (or drug induced writings - an austrian cartoonist portrayed the bible as product of hemp smoking people which holds some legitimacy to it - and he got death threats :-) ....and was not allowed to enter greece anymore (Greece = catholic orthodox).

so atheism is a belief system same as theism. they just hold opposite POVs. So if you are against religious belief systems its not a smart move to state you are an atheist. you could argue to be a non-believer ;-). Hope that helped. Otherwise, i think you are a great intellectual! I value your posts and i vallue the way you underline your arguments with quotations and references. Really really great! Keep up the great work. Love reading your posts!

Well this is where I have to disagree with you.

Golf and basketball are sports. Sandwiches and omelets are meals. Is the choice not to play golf also a sport? If I eat nothing what meal am I eating?


This is one of the classic apologist moves that makes religion inescapable. (there are many) You cannot even opt out of religion without it being a religion.



It also highlights the cultural double standard of religious dialogue. The arguments put forth in defense of religious positions would not be seriously considered in any other context because they are absurd. They get a pass because we are afraid of offending peoples religious beliefs.
Without a little more intellectual honesty than that no serious progress will be made toward anything.


No, atheism is not a belief system same as theism. If someone says that they have an Invisible Pink Unicorn for a pet or a Dragon living in their garage not believing them is not a belief system, it’s called being rational.

[Bebe Le Strange]

Originally Posted by John Bull

Bebe says that all women have the right to kill that kid. OK Bebe, get your scissors ready doll and stick it in. Oh, you can't do it! You'd rather a doc do it! OK, then let's put the doc in jail for life. Murder is murder no matter what you call it or how you rationalize it.
Rant over! Sorry that some of you are offended. The dead kids were offended worse.

Wow! Every woman has a right to choose when it concerns her body. That does not make her a murderer anymore than it makes the doctor a murderer. I am offended by your statements, and the lack of logic you seem to display. It is laughable. I have had two in my lifetime. Don't regret it a bit. I think it is absurd that they are forcing women to have to look at the fetus via Ultrasound before she is allowed to proceed with an abortion. Like it does alot of good trying to shame a person, or make them feel even more guilty than they already do about their situation. So you would prefer that women go back to doing themselves in back ally's with coat hangers and bleeding to death?

[DFW5Traveler]

Abortion is a subject much like politics or religion, sometimes its better to be left alone. Everyone has a disenting opinion on the subject. Some religions believe it's murder, some people believe it's justifiable. Eugenisists advocated it as a form of population control. IMHO it should never be used as a form of birth control because of ones inability to be responsible for their actions.

[pjorourke]

Originally Posted by discreetgent

I was wondering how long it would take for this last ruling to be noted. It goes way beyond the first one but so far no injunction against moving forward pending the appeals.

Actually, he ruled that there was no need for an injunction since his order had the same effect. If the law is unconstitutional, they can't implement it. Not that the House is going to approve the funds do do so anyways.

[Sisyphus]

Originally Posted by WTF

So it is now Pro Murder instead of Pro choice? Hot Damnnnnnnn

Depending on the trimester, that statement has validity. If you believe inception or test tube babies are murdered I would have to respectfully disagree. I believe in the morning after pill and limited first tri.

Had you understood the jest of my statement, you would have noted that my real point was not to bash the good intentions of the Tea Folks but their seemingly inconsistent stance of taking power from the Federal Government and then giving it to the state another government entity. How does that mesh with more personal freedom? It was not a pro abortion post. I do understand though you were busy with atlcomedy's old thread bumps!

If the goal was just to get a rise out of somebody...mission accomplished!

JB, the post to which WTF refers is actually the genesis of my comment to you in ATL's thread. Call me crazy but I expect/want more from my mods...

Any idiot can take the bait. So, let some other idiot take it...then box both their ears for taking it to a level this forum is, allegedly, above...

[Bebe Le Strange]

Originally Posted by DFW5Traveler

Abortion is a subject much like politics or religion, sometimes its better to be left alone. Everyone has a disenting opinion on the subject. Some religions believe it's murder, some people believe it's justifiable. Eugenisists advocated it as a form of population control. IMHO it should never be used as a form of birth control because of ones inability to be responsible for their actions.

Women do not use abortion as a form of birth control. The last thing a woman wants is to have to go through such a an ordeal. Women do not take it lightly, and to suggest that they do, or that they use it as a form of birth control is also an absurd notion / statement.

Edit: It isn't just as simple as you might think, and it's not that they had unprotected sex and then they do not want to accept responsibility. Contraceptives fail. Or a woman already has children. Or a woman is raped, or in a bad relationship, or she is poor and does not have the means to raise a baby, or has an illness like say "cancer" that a pregnancy could exacerbate and kill her faster.. the list goes on.

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by Bebe Le Strange

Women do not use abortion as a form of birth control. The last thing a woman wants is to have to go through such a an ordeal. Women do not take it lightly, and to suggest that they do, or that they use it as a form of birth control is also an absurd notion / statement.

Edit: It isn't just as simple as you might think, and it's not that they had unprotected sex and then they do not want to accept responsibility. Contraceptives fail. Or a woman already has children. Or a woman is raped, or in a bad relationship, or she is poor and does not have the means to raise a baby, or has an illness like say "cancer" that a pregnancy could exacerbate and kill her faster.. the list goes on.

Evidence suggests otherwise.

Death Threats, Hate Mail for 'Abortion Addict' Author Author Irene Vilar, Who Had 15 Abortions in 16 Years, Anticipated Reaction, Death Threats
By SUSAN DONALDSON JAMES
ABC News
Oct. 14, 2009

Pro-life groups have been appalled and infuriated by a controversial book by Irene Vilar that chronicles her life as a self-professed "abortion addict," having had 15 abortions in 16 years.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/ReproductiveHealth/abortion-addict-admits-multiple-abortions-suicide-attempts/story?id=8826305

[DFW5Traveler]

Originally Posted by Bebe Le Strange

Women do not use abortion as a form of birth control. The last thing a woman wants is to have to go through such a an ordeal. Women do not take it lightly, and to suggest that they do, or that they use it as a form of birth control is also an absurd notion / statement.

Edit: It isn't just as simple as you might think, and it's not that they had unprotected sex and then they do not want to accept responsibility. Contraceptives fail. Or a woman already has children. Or a woman is raped, or in a bad relationship, or she is poor and does not have the means to raise a baby, or has an illness like say "cancer" that a pregnancy could exacerbate and kill her faster.. the list goes on.

Are you going to suggest that every girl that responded to this question didn't use her ability to reason and self control before she got pregnant? If they weren't using a contraceptive, they damn sure knew the consequences. Having an abortion after the fact is birth control (edit: or Eugenics).

Horrifying...

Birth or not, help us decide, a real abortion vote

[Valerie]

Originally Posted by DFW5Traveler

. Having an abortion after the fact is birth control

I have to disagree, while yes, unfortunately there are some women out there who do it because they are irresponsible....But not every single woman out there who has had an abortion thought to herself when she was fucking.."Gee, I'm not going to use protection because I can always just pop down to the abortion center!"

There are many many other reasons why some woman choose to have it done.

Birth Control Pills & Condoms are to help prevent pregnancy, so how can you say having an abortion after someone is already with child is a form of birth control?

[DFW5Traveler]

Originally Posted by Valerie

I have to disagree, while yes, unfortunately there are some women out there who do it because they are irresponsible....But not every single woman out there who has had an abortion thought to herself when she was fucking.."Gee, I'm not going to use protection because I can always just pop down to the abortion center!"

There are many many other reasons why some woman choose to have it done.

Birth Control Pills & Condoms are to help prevent pregnancy, so how can you say having an abortion after someone is already with child is a form of birth control?

Thank you. That was my point. Not all abortions are necessary. Reading ib's post shows a another example of poor decision-making. However, there are those that choose to abort for no other reason than "i don't want a baby." And I don't believe its all women just some.

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by Valerie

I have to disagree, ....But not every single woman out there who has had an abortion thought to herself when she was fucking.."Gee, I'm not going to use protection because I can always just pop down to the abortion center!"

Agreed. Only a portion of women fall into such a group.

In 2000, a total of 857,475 legal induced abortions were reported to CDC by 49 reporting areas (excluding Alaska, California, and New Hampshire). The CDC reports that in the year 2000, 29% of women having an abortion had had a previous abortion, and 18% of women having an abortion reported having two or more previous abortions.

http://www.policyalmanac.org/culture/archive/abortion_statistics.shtml

[Mazomaniac]

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

Agreed. Only a portion of women fall into such a group.

In 2000, a total of 857,475 legal induced abortions were reported to CDC by 49 reporting areas (excluding Alaska, California, and New Hampshire). The CDC reports that in the year 2000, 29% of women having an abortion had had a previous abortion, and 18% of women having an abortion reported having two or more previous abortions.

http://www.policyalmanac.org/culture/archive/abortion_statistics.shtml

Doesn't "a portion of women" overstate it just a bit?

That's 400,000 women out of a total female population of 155,000,000.

That's .0025 of the female population.

I think "tiny fraction" is the more appropriate term.

Cheers,
Mazo.

[London Rayne]

Originally Posted by Bebe Le Strange

Wow! Every woman has a right to choose when it concerns her body. That does not make her a murderer anymore than it makes the doctor a murderer. I am offended by your statements, and the lack of logic you seem to display. It is laughable. I have had two in my lifetime. Don't regret it a bit. I think it is absurd that they are forcing women to have to look at the fetus via Ultrasound before she is allowed to proceed with an abortion. Like it does alot of good trying to shame a person, or make them feel even more guilty than they already do about their situation. So you would prefer that women go back to doing themselves in back ally's with coat hangers and bleeding to death?

Oh gee poor her! She has to feel GUILT for offing the baby that she was too CARELESS to prevent from being created! Gimme a break! Maybe every girl who spreads her legs without protection or even AT ALL, should watch an abortion video BEFORE doing so as well? Abortion is no different than free health care for those who keep making babies just to get another check IMO...it's an excuse to be careless at someone else's expense.

People do what they want today but don't want deal with the consequences of THEIR actions...killing innocent children is not the easy way out, but I guess that's the norm with the "anything goes" type attitude today.

Don't even get me started. It's not just a woman's BODY that she is making a choice about...it's the darn baby's heartbeat she is going to stop from beating! I find it so amusing how freedom of choice is only for those who had parents that did NOT abort them....good grief! We are not talking abortions when the mother's life is in danger or from rape or incest either...that I could understand, but that's not the case. EVERYONE has an excuse but the bottom line is, it is NEVER the baby's fault that YOU got pregnant!

[Bebe Le Strange]

http://www.progressive.org/media_mpreagan030106

http://freakonomicsbook.com/freakono...pts/chapter-4/

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504763_1...-10391704.html