Still not safe, still not effective.

[royamcr]

Originally Posted by offshoredrilling

I believe the C19 shot is more deadly than C19

Definitely a trumpy.

[Yssup Rider]

Originally Posted by offshoredrilling

I believe the C19 shot is more deadly than C19

Your beliefs trump the evidence.

Why continue to debate?

Be safe up there in New York.

[offshoredrilling]

Originally Posted by royamcr

Definitely a trumpy.

not sure how vote yet, to early and off topic Sir

[offshoredrilling]

Originally Posted by Yssup Rider

Your beliefs trump the evidence.

Why continue to debate?

Be safe up there in New York.

my point is ether way the evidence.is hidden mmmor shredded

you think its safe, then go for it

what I see with who I know and know of, its a killer

But don't take much Sir, I'll miss ya

[Levianon17]

Originally Posted by Tiny

Don't be silly. I live in the Free State of Texas. Nobody forced me to get a flu, COVID, diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, cholera, yellow fever, hepatis A, hepatitis B, HPV, typhoid, shingles, polio, smallpox or measles vaccine. But I joyfully got all of them! Some of them more than once! And no, I am not afraid of life. I love life! I love it even more when I'm not laid up in bed because of the flu, COVID, diptheria, tetanus, pertussis, cholera, yellow fever, hepatis A, hepatitis B, HPV, typhoid, shingles, polio, smallpox or measles!

Vaccines have prevented many millions of deaths and much pain and suffering. Some who are perhaps optimistic believe the COVID-19 vaccine alone saved 20 million lives in just one year:

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/covid-19-...n-lives-1-year

See, President Trump was probably being conservative when he said "We saved 2 million people" from dying of COVID-19. Thank you president Trump! And American Big Pharma, like Pfizer and Moderna!

"Oh My God", lol. in my whole sixty five years of life I've only had the Flu shot and a few Tetanus shots. You've listed stuff I've never even thought about.

[dilbert firestorm]

Originally Posted by Levianon17

All of them.

so you think c19 is rebranded flu?

[SpeedRacerXXX]

Originally Posted by Yssup Rider

Your beliefs trump the evidence.

Why continue to debate?

Be safe up there in New York.

Exactly. Why continue to debate. The Covid vaccines were fully tested before release, are very effective in preventing hospitalizations and deaths due to Covid, and there are no proven long-term negative effects. All 3 of those statements are FACTS until proven otherwise with contrary FACTS, not opinions.

[Yssup Rider]

Originally Posted by SpeedRacerXXX

Exactly. Why continue to debate. The Covid vaccines were fully tested before release, are very effective in preventing hospitalizations and deaths due to Covid, and there are no proven long-term negative effects. All 3 of those statements are FACTS until proven otherwise with contrary FACTS, not opinions.

Indeed. I’ve had all of the boosters and I’m not dead yet. I had COVID, too. And I’m not dead yet. I’ve had friends and family members who didn’t, did and are.

To disbelieve facts is a pillar of today’s right. Unfortunately, many have and will die to validate their stubbornness.

[Levianon17]

Originally Posted by dilbert firestorm

so you think c19 is rebranded flu?

Probably.

[texassapper]

Originally Posted by SpeedRacerXXX

Exactly. Why continue to debate. The Covid vaccines were fully tested before release, are very effective in preventing hospitalizations and deaths due to Covid, and there are no proven long-term negative effects. All 3 of those statements are FACTS until proven otherwise with contrary FACTS, not opinions.

Pfizer disagrees with you.
From their own Terms for sales....

Purchaser further acknowledges that the long-term effects and efficacy of the vaccine are not currently known and that there may be adverse effects of the vaccine that are not currently known. Further, to the extent applicable, purchaser acknowledges that the product shall not be serialized.

[Yssup Rider]

Originally Posted by texassapper

Pfizer disagrees with you.
From their own Terms for sales....

Impossible to produce a statement on "long-term effects" when the vaccine has been in use for a matter of months.

That's called SCIENCE.

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by Levianon17

"Oh My God", lol. in my whole sixty five years of life I've only had the Flu shot and a few Tetanus shots. You've listed stuff I've never even thought about.

And I can now add another one to the list, RSV!

While we both want to think we're data driven, this perhaps explains part of our different opinions about the COVID vaccine. I've historically had a lot more vaccines.

I used to go to the travel doctor before making a trip and he'd line me up with what he thought I needed. In the last decade or two, I don't do that anymore, although perhaps I should. You don't need most of those to travel, and I believe if you're mostly going to big cities and staying in decent hotels and not eating street food and the like, some of the vaccines are overrated, even if you're going to the third world. You do need yellow fever however to travel between certain places, as without proof of vaccination you can't enter some countries.

I think it is good to keep your diphtheria/polio/tetanus boosters up to date. An acquaintance had a hell of a time in her late 40's when she got shingles, so I got that vaccine early. FYI, both my doctor and pharmacist recently suggested I get vaccinated for shingles again, as a more effective vaccine has come out. If you got the shingles vaccine before 2021, you probably got the older, less effective vaccine, and may want to consider getting the new one. Not mentioning that for you Levianon, just anyone else who might be interested.

And admittedly diet and exercise statistically are a lot more likely to help you in the long run than any vaccine. I know you put a lot of effort into staying physically fit, and bet you watch your diet too.

[Levianon17]

Originally Posted by Tiny

And I can now add another one to the list, RSV!

While we both want to think we're data driven, this perhaps explains part of our different opinions about the COVID vaccine. I've historically had a lot more vaccines.

I used to go to the travel doctor before making a trip and he'd line me up with what he thought I needed. In the last decade or two, I don't do that anymore, although perhaps I should. You don't need most of those to travel, and I believe if you're mostly going to big cities and staying in decent hotels and not eating street food and the like, some of the vaccines are overrated, even if you're going to the third world. You do need yellow fever however to travel between certain places, as without proof of vaccination you can't enter some countries.

I think it is good to keep your diphtheria/polio/tetanus boosters up to date. An acquaintance had a hell of a time in her late 40's when she got shingles, so I got that vaccine early. FYI, both my doctor and pharmacist recently suggested I get vaccinated for shingles again, as a more effective vaccine has come out. If you got the shingles vaccine before 2021, you probably got the older, less effective vaccine, and may want to consider getting the new one. Not mentioning that for you Levianon, just anyone else who might be interested.

And admittedly diet and exercise statistically are a lot more likely to help you in the long run than any vaccine. I know you put a lot of effort into staying physically fit, and bet you watch your diet too.

Yeah, Diet and exercise is quite important and I learn something new all the time from people who know more than me. We all have to eat and since we don't grow our own food we rely on the commercial outlets that supply us with food so it's important to make good food choices. Just about every disease can be traced back to diet, either too much of something or not enough of something. We are all bombarded with toxicity in our environment and in our food and that is the primary reasons why we get sick.

[dilbert firestorm]

this info is coming from the europeans.

https://alexberenson.substack.com/p/...ire-the-immune

More proof the mRNAs rewire the immune system with unknown long-term effects

The biggest study yet on post-jab IgG4 "class switching" just came out. You will be shocked - SHOCKED - to hear American researchers had nothing to do with it.



Alex Berenson
Oct 24, 2023

Many people who receive mRNA Covid jabs wind up with profound changes in their immune systems that usually arise only after prolonged exposure to allergens like bee venom, a new study confirms.

The changes seem to reduce the immune response to Covid as the body adjusts to the unnaturally high antibody levels mRNA jabs initially produce.

They may account for the paradoxical fact that despite Omicron’s mildness, jab fanatics like Stephen Colbert recently have reported failing to clear Covid infections quickly. The immune system changes are unique to mRNA and not seen in people who get other kinds of Covid vaccines, the study found.

The study also showed a powerful immunosuppressant given for eczema suppresses the changes - further raising questions about the potential relationship between skin and autoimmune disorders and the mRNAs.
—
(Here a study, there a study, everywhere a study study. I read ‘em so you don’t have to. Help me help you!)

—

Scientists in the Netherlands carried out the study, which included 604 patients and was funded by the Dutch government.
The researchers posted their findings online as a preprint weeks ago, but the paper has received no mainstream media coverage despite its implications. It confirms and expands upon two earlier papers that showed similar immune system changes.

—

(Three shots of mRNA equals IgG4. Nope, nobody saw this coming. Nope, nobody really knows what it means. And nobody in the United States seems too interested in finding out.)



SOURCE

—

In each paper, scientists reported people who had received at least three mRNA shots showed a sharp increase in a type of antibodies called IgG4.

IgG antibodies persist for months in the blood after someone is infected with an “antigen” - a foreign invader like the coronavirus. They are the most common antibodies the immune system produces.

In the case of the coronavirus, IgG antibodies attach to the spike protein that juts out from the surface of the virus. They then either prevent the virus from locking on the body’s cells and reproducing, or recruit other parts of the immune system to attack the virus.

But IgG antibodies come in different subclasses.

IgG4 is generally the rarest, and the last the body makes. The IgG4 subtype does not recruit other parts of the immune system to attack the virus, though can still “neutralize” the virus by keeping the virus from attaching to cells. Usually, the IgG4 class make up less than 5 percent of all IgG antibodies, and often less than 1 percent.

But the scientists found that after a third shot, IgG4 made up about 21 percent of all the IgG antibodies they found in the average healthy adult. The levels varied very widely, though, and in 1 in 4 adults IgG4 was nearly 50 percent of all IgG antibodies.

—

(Stephen Colbert, mRNA success story! Colbert’s infamous “Vax-Scene” skit, circa June 2021…)



SOURCE

…

(And his most recent bout with Covid, last week, which forced him off the air yet again. Amazingly, Colbert blamed the fact that he had NOT gotten the most recent booster for his new case of Covid, ignoring all his previous shots.)



SOURCE

—

Because IgG4 is so uncommon when the immune system is working normally, no one really knows what the impact of much-higher-than-normal IgG4 levels may be. “Accurately deciphering the negative consequences, if any, of increased IgG4 levels will be difficult,” one expert wrote in January, after the first IgG4 papers appeared.

But the uncertainties don’t end there.

No one knows whether IgG4 levels will keep rising with further boosters or repeated Covid infections. No one knows whether Omicron’s spike will keep mutating away from the antibodies that people who receive the initial vaccines made.

For over a year, Omicron’s general mildness has largely muted these concerns. Paxlovid has also helped the most vulnerable. So while Covid infections continue, few people are being hospitalized or dying from the illness.

Still, at least anecdotally, stories like this are not uncommon:



—

Finally, the Dutch paper contained the intriguing finding that patients taking dupilumab - a new drug that blocks an immune stimulant called IL-4 and is used to treat eczema - had almost no increase in IgG4. So did patients taking older drugs called tumor necrosis factor inhibitors, which are used to treat rheumatoid arthritis and other autoimmune diseases.

Those drugs, which are powerful immune system modulators, should not be necessary to undo the impact of a properly working vaccine on the immune system. Yet that is exactly what dupilumab and the TNF inhibitors appeared to do. They normalized immune responses and reduced IgG4 levels in people who received the mRNAs.

The question is why - and what their impact may say about the overall effect of the mRNAs on the immune system. Case reports worldwide suggest that in rare cases the mRNAs cause autoimmune diseases, including rheumatoid arthritis and even Type 1 diabetes; no one really knows why.

But don’t expect American scientists to be helpful in answering any of those questions.

The United States - home of two of the three mRNA Covid vaccine companies - continues to do everything possible to deny even the theoretical possibility of mRNA side effects. All three IgG4 papers came from European researchers.

After all, you can’t report bad news if you don’t find it.
And you can’t find it if you don’t look.

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by dilbert firestorm

this info is coming from the europeans.

https://alexberenson.substack.com/p/...ire-the-immune

More proof the mRNAs rewire the immune system with unknown long-term effects

The biggest study yet on post-jab IgG4 "class switching" just came out. You will be shocked - SHOCKED - to hear American researchers had nothing to do with it.



Alex Berenson
Oct 24, 2023

Many people who receive mRNA Covid jabs wind up with profound changes in their immune systems that usually arise only after prolonged exposure to allergens like bee venom, a new study confirms.

The changes seem to reduce the immune response to Covid as the body adjusts to the unnaturally high antibody levels mRNA jabs initially produce.

They may account for the paradoxical fact that despite Omicron’s mildness, jab fanatics like Stephen Colbert recently have reported failing to clear Covid infections quickly. The immune system changes are unique to mRNA and not seen in people who get other kinds of Covid vaccines, the study found.

The study also showed a powerful immunosuppressant given for eczema suppresses the changes - further raising questions about the potential relationship between skin and autoimmune disorders and the mRNAs.
—
(Here a study, there a study, everywhere a study study. I read ‘em so you don’t have to. Help me help you!)

—

Scientists in the Netherlands carried out the study, which included 604 patients and was funded by the Dutch government.
The researchers posted their findings online as a preprint weeks ago, but the paper has received no mainstream media coverage despite its implications. It confirms and expands upon two earlier papers that showed similar immune system changes.

—

(Three shots of mRNA equals IgG4. Nope, nobody saw this coming. Nope, nobody really knows what it means. And nobody in the United States seems too interested in finding out.)



SOURCE

—

In each paper, scientists reported people who had received at least three mRNA shots showed a sharp increase in a type of antibodies called IgG4.

IgG antibodies persist for months in the blood after someone is infected with an “antigen” - a foreign invader like the coronavirus. They are the most common antibodies the immune system produces.

In the case of the coronavirus, IgG antibodies attach to the spike protein that juts out from the surface of the virus. They then either prevent the virus from locking on the body’s cells and reproducing, or recruit other parts of the immune system to attack the virus.

But IgG antibodies come in different subclasses.

IgG4 is generally the rarest, and the last the body makes. The IgG4 subtype does not recruit other parts of the immune system to attack the virus, though can still “neutralize” the virus by keeping the virus from attaching to cells. Usually, the IgG4 class make up less than 5 percent of all IgG antibodies, and often less than 1 percent.

But the scientists found that after a third shot, IgG4 made up about 21 percent of all the IgG antibodies they found in the average healthy adult. The levels varied very widely, though, and in 1 in 4 adults IgG4 was nearly 50 percent of all IgG antibodies.

—

(Stephen Colbert, mRNA success story! Colbert’s infamous “Vax-Scene” skit, circa June 2021…)



SOURCE

…

(And his most recent bout with Covid, last week, which forced him off the air yet again. Amazingly, Colbert blamed the fact that he had NOT gotten the most recent booster for his new case of Covid, ignoring all his previous shots.)



SOURCE

—

Because IgG4 is so uncommon when the immune system is working normally, no one really knows what the impact of much-higher-than-normal IgG4 levels may be. “Accurately deciphering the negative consequences, if any, of increased IgG4 levels will be difficult,” one expert wrote in January, after the first IgG4 papers appeared.

But the uncertainties don’t end there.

No one knows whether IgG4 levels will keep rising with further boosters or repeated Covid infections. No one knows whether Omicron’s spike will keep mutating away from the antibodies that people who receive the initial vaccines made.

For over a year, Omicron’s general mildness has largely muted these concerns. Paxlovid has also helped the most vulnerable. So while Covid infections continue, few people are being hospitalized or dying from the illness.

Still, at least anecdotally, stories like this are not uncommon:



—

Finally, the Dutch paper contained the intriguing finding that patients taking dupilumab - a new drug that blocks an immune stimulant called IL-4 and is used to treat eczema - had almost no increase in IgG4. So did patients taking older drugs called tumor necrosis factor inhibitors, which are used to treat rheumatoid arthritis and other autoimmune diseases.

Those drugs, which are powerful immune system modulators, should not be necessary to undo the impact of a properly working vaccine on the immune system. Yet that is exactly what dupilumab and the TNF inhibitors appeared to do. They normalized immune responses and reduced IgG4 levels in people who received the mRNAs.

The question is why - and what their impact may say about the overall effect of the mRNAs on the immune system. Case reports worldwide suggest that in rare cases the mRNAs cause autoimmune diseases, including rheumatoid arthritis and even Type 1 diabetes; no one really knows why.

But don’t expect American scientists to be helpful in answering any of those questions.

The United States - home of two of the three mRNA Covid vaccine companies - continues to do everything possible to deny even the theoretical possibility of mRNA side effects. All three IgG4 papers came from European researchers.

After all, you can’t report bad news if you don’t find it.
And you can’t find it if you don’t look.

Thanks for posting on this Dilbert.

I'm not getting much from the Dutch paper about IgG4 antibodies, because I don't have the background to understand it.

This one however, including its long list of references relative to auto-immune diseases and the COVID vaccines, is easier to understand does give some cause for concern:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10222767/

If they're right, negative outcomes from vaccination would mostly affect people who are genetically susceptible, have immune deficiencies, or comorbidities. But that's also the group that's supposed to receive the most benefit from the vaccines. Apparently not only the vaccines but also infection with COVID-19, the disease, may lead to higher IgG4 production. You're damned if you do get the vaccine and you're damned if you don't.

It will be interesting to see how this develops. Back a couple of years ago, vaccination might reduce your chances of severe disease from COVID by 80% or more. Now that's lower. I thought the big reason was because everyone's now had the disease and/or the vaccines, so we all have at least some immunity. But maybe this has something to do with it too.

I'm probably going to continue to do whatever the CDC and mainstream science and medicine recommend. If indeed the risks of the vaccines appear to outweigh the benefits, they'll let us know, although admittedly not as fast as we'd like.

I'm calling bull shit on the Bertha Madras tweet about Paxlovid. I've had too many friends swear by it. One has had COVID three times, the first back in October, 2020, when he actually thought he might die. Both times he got COVID since then, he took Paxlovid. And both times he got a lot better overnight. From what I understand the only downside is it tastes like shit.