So what do you think of Dianne Feinstein releasing the CIA Torture Report??

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by lustylad

I may have been wrong to attribute the order to Patton. It's probably not the type of thing that would have been documented anyway. My info came from someone who fought in the Bulge and had first-hand knowledge. He just said the "word came down" and it lasted for about a week. I wasn't aware of what happened at Chenogne. From the wikipedia account, there seems to be some disagreement over the historical facts. I certainly do understand how hard it would be for a US soldier to execute a captured POW, even under orders. A lot harder than pouring water down Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's throat.

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Perhaps you remember the incident recounted in the HBO series Band of Brothers based on author-historian Stephen Ambrose's book with the same title.

CPT Winters stated that LT Speirs was alleged on one occasion to have killed six German prisoners of war with a Thompson submachinegun and that the battalion leadership must have been aware of the allegations, but chose to ignore the charges because of the pressing need to retain qualified combat leaders. Winters concluded that in today's army, Speirs would have been court-martialed and charged with atrocities, but officers like Speirs were too valuable because they were not afraid to engage the enemy.

Author-historian Carlo D’Este, in his book (pp. 318-19 & Appendix K) Bitter Victory: The Battle for Sicily, 1943, recounts how there were two incidents, the Biscari massacre, where American troops in Patton's command executed 73 Italian and German POWs during the Sicily campaign. Patton dismissed the report as an exaggeration, but Bradley reported the incidents for prosecution. In one incident, an officer was charged and found not guilty stating he was following Patton's orders to summarily execute snipers. In the other case, an NCO was charged, found guilty and sentenced to life in prison. Though imprisoned, the sergeant wasn't dishonorably discharged. One year later, his sentence was commuted, and he was released and served out the remainder of the war.

[Wakeup]

Originally Posted by Jackie S

No senior commander would ever issue such an order.

Granted, individule soldiers probably did some things that were less than honorable, our human failings can sometimes overpower our better sensibilities in circumstances that enrage us, but that is a far cry from saying a General Officer issued such an order.

I would go so far as to say that no senior officer would ever even hint at such activity. That would be a good way to be stood in front of a Court Marshal on trial for murder.

The Colonel in command of the 328th, a field grade senior officer, signed the order to not take any prisoners after Malmedy. I've seen a copy of the FRAGO. Patton heard about the Chenogne massacre and wrote in his personal diary that he hoped they could cover it up, and no one was ever prosecuted. That's why the Army teaches us about it...we carry the stain of that unpunished war crime as a reminder of the worst possible actions we have committed, so we can avoid them in the future.

[lustylad]

Originally Posted by Wakeup

The Chenogne Massacre, carried out by the 21st Armored as a possible reprisal for Malmedy, was a war crime, an atrocity no better than the Malmedy Massacre, and it's a stain that the U.S. Army carries with it to this day.

I disagree when you say whatever happened at Chenogne (the truth is still unclear, possibly due to cover-up) is morally equivalent to what occurred at Malmedy. How were we supposed to respond to Malmedy? Send a message to the German high command warning that we wouldn't tolerate any more violations of the Geneva conventions? Or else what? We were at war. How do you deter the enemy during war? The most pointed message we could send them was to engage in similar conduct for a week, which we did. We were arguably trying to prevent more Malmedys.

We all know there is great moral ambiguity in war. When the Germans first used chemical weapons in WW1, should the Allies not have responded in kind? When the Luftwaffe's 1940 London blitz showed the world how strategic bombing kills thousands of civilians, should the Allies have refrained from bombing German cities? Is it always wrong to fight fire with fire? I think the person who initiates the race to the bottom is a lot more culpable than the person who turns around and uses those same methods against the original transgressor.

Ironically when the news of what happened at Malmedy spread among our troops, it sparked much more anger, fury and determination within our ranks to "murder those lousy Hun cocksuckers by the bushel-fucking-basket" than any of Patton's profanity-laden speeches and exhortations ever did.

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[lustylad]

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

Perhaps you remember the incident recounted in the HBO series Band of Brothers based on author-historian Stephen Ambrose's book with the same title.

The same relative who fought in the Bulge and had first-hand knowledge of the no-prisoners order also told me he thought Band of Brothers was an impressively realistic portrayal and similar to his own war experience. I didn't watch the entire series. It originally aired in 2001 but was interrupted due to 9/11.

[LexusLover]

There are (and have been) many events in our history, military or civilian, that occurred, but lack publicly disclosed "documentation" and are known and experienced by servicemembers and/or civilians who for one reason or another remain publicly silent.

That does not mean those events did not happen.

For better or worse, it is more difficult today than 60-70 years ago.

A "reason" for it is the original theme of this thread. Government suppresses it or negligently (best case scenario) gathers the information on the event for a report.

It was roughly 50 years after the alleged "Gulf of Tonkin" incident (which sounded "strange" at the time to say the least) that it was disclosed that LBJ essentially orchestrated the fabrication of the event to justify ramping up the U.S. involvement in S.E. Asia. And on that topic when Kennedy was sworn he was unaware of our involvement (the scope of it at least) in S.E. Asia. He was not briefed on it through the transition process.

[Jackie S]

Originally Posted by Wakeup

The Colonel in command of the 328th, a field grade senior officer, signed the order to not take any prisoners after Malmedy. I've seen a copy of the FRAGO. Patton heard about the Chenogne massacre and wrote in his personal diary that he hoped they could cover it up, and no one was ever prosecuted. That's why the Army teaches us about it...we carry the stain of that unpunished war crime as a reminder of the worst possible actions we have committed, so we can avoid them in the future.

I did not know that about General Patton.

In POR school, we were given "instructions" as to how to behave in a hostile environment. As I look back, it was rather odd of the Army to be giving us instructions of such a serious matter when just months before, we were a bunch of 18-19 year olds whose biggest worry was who we could get to buy us some booze for our week end escapades.

I was not an 11 Bravo, so I was not in the field, aside from having to go out and check and repair equipment. So I do not have the same perspective as a soldier who was subject to being in harms way on a regular basis.

[Wakeup]

Originally Posted by lustylad

I disagree when you say whatever happened at Chenogne (the truth is still unclear, possibly due to cover-up) is morally equivalent to what occurred at Malmedy. How were we supposed to respond to Malmedy? Send a message to the German high command warning that we wouldn't tolerate any more violations of the Geneva conventions? Or else what? We were at war. How do you deter the enemy during war? The most pointed message we could send them was to engage in similar conduct for a week, which we did. We were arguably trying to prevent more Malmedys.

We all know there is great moral ambiguity in war. When the Germans first used chemical weapons in WW1, should the Allies not have responded in kind? When the Luftwaffe's 1940 London blitz showed the world how strategic bombing kills thousands of civilians, should the Allies have refrained from bombing German cities? Is it always wrong to fight fire with fire? I think the person who initiates the race to the bottom is a lot more culpable than the person who turns around and uses those same methods against the original transgressor.

Ironically when the news of what happened at Malmedy spread among our troops, it sparked much more anger, fury and determination within our ranks to "murder those lousy Hun cocksuckers by the bushel-fucking-basket" than any of Patton's profanity-laden speeches and exhortations ever did.

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Not going to justify these comments with any more response than this...have a nice day...

[Primus]

I can only hope that if there is any attack due to this, that one or several of her family members perish in it. Maybe then it will sink in that there is a line that politicians should not cross.

[Guest123018-4]

Free Eric Snowden, he did no more damage to our nation than Feinstein did.

[gnadfly]

Originally Posted by WTF

My lil bitch COG has none...not sure about two of my other bitch's. Why don't you and LexieLiar reach down between your panties and see if you can find a pair.

With the exception of the Austin Reacharound Crew members, no male on this forum is your bitch. You on the other hand are a moronic buffoon.

Originally Posted by WTF

Everybody knows COG has no balls...i was just giving you and gnad the benefit of doubt.

Your concern about other male members dicks and balls throughout the years is quite telling. Would you be more comfortable in "Another Realm" or perhaps another type of board?

Originally Posted by Wakeup

...and it's a stain that the U.S. Army carries with it to this day.

And few have or will ever hear of it. Compare it to the atrocities committed by other nations or countries past makes it like quibbling over spoiled leftovers.

Originally Posted by Wakeup

The Colonel in command of the 328th, a field grade senior officer, signed the order to not take any prisoners after Malmedy. I've seen a copy of the FRAGO. Patton heard about the Chenogne massacre and wrote in his personal diary that he hoped they could cover it up, and no one was ever prosecuted...

So the "stain" is a paper trail? And no mention of Lt Calley? Interesting.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by gnadfly

With the exception of the Austin Reacharound Crew members, no male on this forum is your bitch. You on the other hand are a moronic buffoon.

.

So says my third lil Bitch.....or are you my second?

[boardman]

Originally Posted by The2Dogs

Free Eric Snowden, he did no more damage to our nation than Feinstein did.

Yes, ^^^^^^^ hadn't thought about that til now.

[Wakeup]

Originally Posted by gnadfly

And few have or will ever hear of it. Compare it to the atrocities committed by other nations or countries past makes it like quibbling over spoiled leftovers.

You're not saying that because other nations have done more, or worse, that it's okay for us to do it, are you? Just wanted to clarify your intent before I decide to respond or not.

Originally Posted by gnadfly

So the "stain" is a paper trail? And no mention of Lt Calley? Interesting.

No, there is no paper trail for the Chenogne massacre...the order issued by the commander of the 328th was never carried out, and no such order was given at Chenogne. The fact it happened and was never prosecuted is what the Army stresses to us when they teach new Privates that part of our history. It makes much more of an impact to show how Americans of the Greatest Generation, who we hold to such a high standard, acted during portions of that conflict, and how it affects soldiers in a volunteer Army today. We can talk about Vietnam if you'd like, but I don't think you'd appreciate it...

[gnadfly]

Originally Posted by WTF

So says my third lil Bitch.....or are you my second?

Neither. That would be your mom.

[LexusLover]

Originally Posted by Wakeup

No, there is no paper trail for the Chenogne massacre...the order issued by the commander of the 328th was never carried out, and no such order was given at Chenogne. The fact it happened and was never prosecuted is what the Army stresses to us when they teach new Privates that part of our history.

Are you suggesting that the Army's version of history is more accurate?