Welcome to ECCIE - Sign up today!

Munchmasterman · 07-09-2012, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gnadfly

Are the bills written organically by the legislators or by bureaucrats at the NRC?

You sound like a lawyer trying to justify his fee.

They are written by the congressman's staff with input from relevant SMEs (Subject Matter Experts).
Since laws are interpreted by the SCOTUS, doesn’t it make sense that lawyers would write them? Think of what the bills would look like if fox news writers wrote them. Or Rep. Joe Walsh.

CuteOldGuy · 07-09-2012, 07:45 AM

Well, Munchie. You have surprised me again. That must be the stupidest post ever. We need the laws written by lawyers, so other lawyers can understand them. It doesn't matter if the person who has to follow the law can understand it, as long as the lawyers can.

We definitely need more lawyers in government. You're right, Munchie. Excellent logic.

Texas Contrarian · 07-09-2012, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Munchmasterman

A good example is the 2700+ page Obamacare bill.

A good example of what, exactly?

Seems to me that it's a good example of the sort of crap you get when politicians try to do things such as attempt to adorn a bill with all sorts of junk designed to make it less objectionable to senators in swing states. The health care "reform" bill is ridiculously arcane and staggeringly complex. We were told by budget director Orszag in 2009 that it would "bend the cost curve down." But it obviously does just the opposite. It expands and subsidizes an inefficient, third party-payer system where no one has any incentive to control costs. And a lot of investors and business owners feel that the overhang of uncertainty inherent in all the new taxes, mandates, and rules acts as an impediment to economic growth and job creation. Is it any wonder that so much capital has decided to take an extended vacation?

It's been estimated that the IRS will have to hire about 16,000 new agents in order to make sure that all the new provisions will be enforced. Great. Let's make the tax code even more complicated!

Besides, if the health care plan is so great, why have so many politically-connected businesses and organizations sought waivers so that they can be exempted from it?

And are any of you guys going to try to defend Dodd-Frank?

Speaking of things written by "career bureaucrats", how about the tax code? Great work, folks!

A number of libertarian economists (John C. Goodman, for one) have described various methods whereby we could provide near-universal health coverage while controlling costs, and without creating a monstrous level of perverse incentives and disincentives.

(Oops! Sorry, my bad. We certainly shouldn't entertain the thought of letting anything resembling market forces fuck up opportunities for bureaucrats and Capitol Hill power barons.)

Whirlaway · 07-09-2012, 09:48 AM

It is down right hysterical to watch liberals twist up in to pretzel form to protect their notion of governance.........

"we need more lawyers and complex laws because lawyers write the rules we all live by and interprete the laws we live by.."

Add to that: They also exempt themselves from those very laws".........

TexTushHog · 07-09-2012, 11:42 AM

Who writes the bill itself? Depends. It usually starts out as an rough idea and then is turned unto an actual bill by one of the legislative drafting services or by staff. Then, various interest groups get a look at the bill and make proposed changes. Those are circulated and then a first draft emerges. That gets changed by experts with knowledge of the relevant fields, committee staff, members, interest groups, etc dozens and dozens of times until a sufficient number of folks are willing to vote for it or not. Often agencies that will be effected are also consulted. Then the process starts all over again in the other side of the capitol. I'd guess for the average 100 page bill, 250-500 people have had a hand in drafting by the time all is said and done. If its on a big or controversial topic, even one that isn't partisan, that can easily go into the 1000's.

CuteOldGuy · 07-09-2012, 12:54 PM

And that's a good thing, TTH?

CJ7 · 07-09-2012, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

And that's a good thing, TTH?

how would you do it COF ?

CuteOldGuy · 07-09-2012, 01:15 PM

If a law cannot be explained in a manner that the average person can understand it, it is hiding something they don't want the average person to know. Every law we have could be written in an understandable manner, but they're not, because the authors don't want the people to know what they are doing. Read the tax code. Can you imaging how outraged people would be if they could see all the provisions, understandably spelled out, that allow for special breaks and credits for special interest groups? But since it's in legalese, all sorts of things can be hidden in there. It's outrageous.

And before you bash me, I used to write government regulations. It was long ago, and worse now.

But it's like the old saying. If you can't explain your concept to a child, you don't understand it. It follows that if you need a lawyer to tell you what the law is, the law is either unnecessarily complex, or intentionally complex to hide its true objective.

CJ7 · 07-09-2012, 01:17 PM

so you cant explain how youd do it

ok, thanks.

next contestant

CuteOldGuy · 07-09-2012, 01:19 PM

I explained it. You can't understand it. It's that comprehension thing again. Here, let me try an object lesson.

MAKE LAW EASIER TO UNDERSTAND!

There, hope it helped. Oops. Used some multi-syllabic words. I'll try again later.

joe bloe · 07-09-2012, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

If a law cannot be explained in a manner that the average person can understand it, it is hiding something they don't want the average person to know. Every law we have could be written in an understandable manner, but they're not, because the authors don't want the people to know what they are doing. Read the tax code. Can you imaging how outraged people would be if they could see all the provisions, understandably spelled out, that allow for special breaks and credits for special interest groups? But since it's in legalese, all sorts of things can be hidden in there. It's outrageous.

And before you bash me, I used to write government regulations. It was long ago, and worse now.

But it's like the old saying. If you can't explain your concept to a child, you don't understand it. It follows that if you need a lawyer to tell you what the law is, the law is either unnecessarily complex, or intentionally complex to hide its true objective.

The law is designed to be understandable to lawyers and not the average citizen, because that gives power to the government and takes freedom from the individual. It also provides employment for lawyers, who are the ones writing the laws, in the first place.

It's same concept as the Catholic church, before the Protestant Reformation. Church members had no choice, but to rely on the priests, to tell them what the Bible said; the Bible was written in Latin and was too expensive for the average person to own.

Knowledge is power. If you can keep people ignorant, you can control them.

CJ7 · 07-09-2012, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

I explained it. You can't understand it. It's that comprehension thing again. Here, let me try an object lesson.

MAKE LAW EASIER TO UNDERSTAND!

There, hope it helped. Oops. Used some multi-syllabic words. I'll try again later.

make it easier .. yes indeed that explains everything

I hereby issue you the official EASY BUTTON.

press it , turn 3 circles, close your eyes and say revolution.

TexTushHog · 07-09-2012, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

And that's a good thing, TTH?

It's a necessary thing.

Look at the reg on railroad car shoving I quoted a while back. Simple topic. I can explain the concept in seconds -- "when the engineer can't see where he's going, you have to take extra precautions." To draft up an air tight reg that covers all the bases, ours it in enforceable terms, closes loopholes, doesn't create conflicts with other laws, etc. takes dozens and dozens of folks months and months to do. Then, experience in the real world shows you you still missed a trick here and there.

MrGiz · 07-09-2012, 08:11 PM

How does one type the sound of "cough-choke-gag-BULLSHIT " thru a keyboard?

It should not take hundreds and hundreds.... literally thousands of pages to draft some of the latest laws of the past 20 years!! That is pure bullshit, plain and simple!! The only reason, is to hide all the thousands of earmarks and hidden agendas of those out to enrich themselves further, thru the ignorance of the general public!!

How else can you honestly explain the latest exposed 3.8% Medicare Tax on unearned income thru investment, such as simply selling a home... purposely hidden from the general public view, within the "Afforable Healthcare Act"? *Why did that proposed tax have to be included as part of a Health Care Bill?* Why didn't they have the balls to be "transparent" about wanting to fleece more money from the public's pockets? * WHY?

Like my cousin, Forrest Gump. . . I may not be able (or have enough patience) to read legaleze... but I know the smell of bullshit!!

Smoke & Mirrors. . . Plain & Simple!!

CuteOldGuy · 07-09-2012, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TexTushHog

It's a necessary thing.

Look at the reg on railroad car shoving I quoted a while back. Simple topic. I can explain the concept in seconds -- "when the engineer can't see where he's going, you have to take extra precautions." To draft up an air tight reg that covers all the bases, ours it in enforceable terms, closes loopholes, doesn't create conflicts with other laws, etc. takes dozens and dozens of folks months and months to do. Then, experience in the real world shows you you still missed a trick here and there.

They can write it like that. It shouldn't take you or me to explain it to others. How is "Be careful when you back up" going to conflict with any other law?