Do you think the teachers at Sandy wish they had been armed?

[WhoAreWe]

Originally Posted by timpage

It's not even about that. These idiots act like defending a classroom against an armed assault is the same as teaching third graders multiplication. The entire premise is absurd. Teachers are teachers. The idea that teachers should be charged with the responsibility of protecting students against intruders with assault rifles is utterly ridiculous.

[JD Barleycorn]

It is called self defense. So, according to Timpage, if this murderer showed up the teacher could just say I'm a teacher, I'm exempt and it is not my job to protect children. If a tornado where to hit then the teachers race to a safe place and the children have to fend for themselves according to Timpage. Don't you feel stupid now Who.

Hugh do a little research before saying stupid things. Pearl River, Mississippi-1997: A deranged student, who had already killed his mother, began to shoot up his high school. He killed two and wounded seven when the assistant principal returned with a .45 pistol retrieved from his car and held the shooter until authorities arrived.

Aurora, Colorado-2012: A man entered a church after crashing his car in the parking lot. He killed on woman and fired on others trying to aid her when he was shot and killed by an armed citizen who was an off duty policeman who chose to carry a weapon off duty.

Colorado Springs, Colorado-2007: A man entered the church and killed two sisters before being shot and killed by a armed volunteer who was not a cop.

San Antonio, Texas-2012: A man began to shoot theater patrons in a parking lot and restaraunt when an armed citizen engaged the shooter. The shooter was shot by an off duty deputy who was carrying a concealed weapon.

Clackamas, Oregon-2012: A man entered the city mall and killed two people, wounding one before an armed citizen made an effort to get a clear line of fire. The shooter saw the armed citizen and retreated to a stairwell where he killed himself. If there was not armed citizen then the shooter could have continued until police arrived minutes later.

[LexusLover]

Originally Posted by timpage

These idiots act like defending a classroom against an armed assault is the same as teaching third graders multiplication.

It is while sitting on one's couch watching it being done on TV....

.... or better yet while ... watching ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bs6fY69u5Mg

[Laz]

Originally Posted by timpage

It's not even about that. These idiots act like defending a classroom against an armed assault is the same as teaching third graders multiplication. The entire premise is absurd. Teachers are teachers. The idea that teachers should be charged with the responsibility of protecting students against intruders with assault rifles is utterly ridiculous.

They are charged with protecting the students from whoever tries to harm them so it is not ridiculous. From what I have heard some of them died doing that job. I see nothing wrong with allowing them to be trained and have access to a weapon. I would actually make the training more comprehensive than that needed for a CHL. I would NOT make the training mandatory but if the teacher wanted it, why not. I like the idea of people knowing that any school they might attack could be a hard target not a soft target.

[LexusLover]

Originally Posted by JD Barleycorn

It is called self defense.

What it is called in reality is liability ...

... There are a host of "causes of action" resulting from an employee of a state entity discharging a firearm or possessing a firearm that is erroneously discharged resulting in the serious bodily injury of an "innocent" bystander .... then the individual employee is personally liable apart from the "employer" if the individual employee was acting in a manner inconsistent with the employer's policies regarding the conduct ....

someone (may be you) mentioned the teacher keeping her "defensive" weapon in a "clutch" purse (concealed, I assume) ... and where is she going to keep the purse between classroom assaults? Locked in a drawer?

School districts are constantly concerned about liability resulting from the actions and inactions of their employees, and if school districts are unwilling or unable to TRAIN 2-4 officers per school to handle an intruder with firearms and body armour plus provide the technology to keep eyes on the facility and the perimeter to keep unwanted or unknown intruders from entering the property, then school districts clearly will not pay for 50 teachers and staff in each school to do the same .... and that WILL BE THEIR OBLIGATION ...

....the fallacy is too much testosterone on this board concluding that all one has to do is be handed a pistol and the someone is ready, willing, and able to confront a deranged intruder with firearms and body armour and successfully defend 20-30 children in a classroom without any of them getting hurt while "putting down" the intruder.

I recognize that it is unpopular in a locker room, tailgating, internet environment, but CHL qualifications are totally inadequate to qualify ANYONE, much less a 25-year-old 2nd grade teacher, who more than likely never held a firearm of ANY KIND, to engage a a deranged intruder with firearms and body armour and successfully defend 20-30 children in a classroom without any of them getting hurt while "putting down" the intruder.

Texas has one of the highest rated peace officer licensing qualification standards in the country and academy graduates who pass the licensing exam are sought after all over this country in various agencies .... but those standards for basic peace officers are ALSO totally inadequate to train a newbie peace officer to engage a deranged intruder with firearms and body armour and successfully defend 20-30 children in a classroom without any of them getting hurt while "putting down" the intruder. And the Texas Basic Peace Officer standards of training in a police academy are 10 to 15 times more intensive in quality and quantity than the Texas CHL qualification classes.

The "want-a-be" security officer pushed up front as the "poster child" for arming school teachers to confront an intruder is .... unfortunately for those touting the guy as a hero ...

actually a "poster child" for NOT ARMING amatuers in a live fire situation with overwhelming fire power .... he DID NOT TAKE A SHOT while the guy was clearing his rifle and hid in a store leaving his female companion and her child to fend for themselves .... then later claims that he was responsible for scaring the guy to death! The "want-a-be's" weapon of choice to defend himself and his gf and the Mall customers?

.... a .22 Glock!!!!! His grasp of reality under fire.

I would be willing to bet any CHL holder on this board that their customary loads in their customary carry weapon is IMPROPER for indoor, close range confrontations in a crowded environment ... and just be honest..... because when you have to testify as to what "happened" when you discharge your weapon you will have to explain your choice as it relates to the shooting environment in which you draw your weapon and your decision making in that instant you decide to "shoot" or "don't shoot" under the existing circumstances. That "instant" will consume probably two to three hours of direct and cross-examination in which physics (science) and geometry will be a major factor.

Lay that on a 2nd grade art teacher.

[LexusLover]

Originally Posted by Laz

I would NOT make the training mandatory but if the teacher wanted it, why not.

If the school policy (actually state law too) allows it, adequate training and re-qualification would be MANDATORY, even if the school district could obtain liability coverage for the teachers carrying the weapons, which I seriously doubt, since most general liability policy underwriting prohibits or excludes intentional torts from coverage.

[LexusLover]

Originally Posted by JD Barleycorn

Hugh do a little research before saying stupid things.

Take your own advice.

During the same time period ...

"The leading cause of death was gunfire, which has killed 68 officers this year (2011), just one short of the decade-long high of 69 in 2007.

"One of them was Scotty Richardson, 33, a master officer with the Aiken, S.C., police, who was buried Tuesday in a flag-draped coffin. Richardson died after he was shot in the head Dec. 20 (2011) during a nighttime traffic stop. His partner was also shot and survived, NBC station WAGT of Augusta, Ga., reported.

"Preliminary data compiled by the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund showed that 173 federal, state and local officers have been killed on the job so far this year, 13 percent more than the 153 who died in 2010 — and 42 percent more than the 122 officers who were killed in 2009."
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2011...ply-again?lite

Officer Richardson "had an additional 1,460 hours of advanced training," Frommer said. "Everybody can't do that."

Especially 2nd grade art teachers!!!!

You cite a half dozen sorry, unsubstantied, examples of how a private citizen stopped a rampage over a 5 year period when during that same period about 300 better trained peace officers were killed by gunfire from citizens with weapons ... and you want to arm ...

a 2nd grade art teacher?

What YOU are actually doing is attempting to bolster your own agenda that YOU are well equipped and trained to confront these crazies. To claim a CHL carrier is inadequate means YOU and YOU can't stand it. So to justify YOUR agenda, YOU want to send lambs to the slaughter...... rather than allow better trained professionals to do the job...... YOU want amateurs to do it, to "prove" YOU can!!!

[Budman]

Originally Posted by CJ7

when it comes down to an actual emergency situation not everyone that has a hidden pistol is capable of clearing their head and putting the possibility of being killed on the back burner, dealing with the situation is far more difficult than it sounds ... even some cops freeze from time to time. Im not really sure you could get a teacher over that hump ... maybe the ones the werent scared to death of a pistol to start with, but the rest ?

You are correct that it is a very difficult situation to deal with and some may be unable to handle it. That being said having a gun with the proper training would not put them in any more of a dangerous situation than they are already in. If they have a gun and are unable to use it because they freeze and the lunatic burst into the room and kills them is a tragedy just the same as if they were unarmed.

Originally Posted by i'va biggen

the kid's mother had six guns,did it help her?

Having a gun does not gaurantee that you will be the victor in a conflict but it sure as hell gives you a better chance. This lunatic burst into a classroom and starts shooting chances are the teacher being armed would not have made any difference. However if the other teachers hear the shooting and are armed they now have the chance to prepare themselves and their kids for a possible attack. Does not gaurantee they will not be killed but not having a gun does.

[JD Barleycorn]

someone (may be you) mentioned the teacher keeping her "defensive" weapon in a "clutch" purse (concealed, I assume) ... and where is she going to keep the purse between classroom assaults? Locked in a drawer?

Go back and read again. It is called sarcasm or did you swoon when I mentioned the little black dress?

[JD Barleycorn]

So, according to Lexus, no one should be allowed to have a weapon since they can't afford the investment in time and money to get all of that training. Did I paraphrase you correctly? So Lexus is a gun grabber. I wonder what time period you are talking about since no one has brought up a time period to reference. Of course any idiot (Lexus excluded) would say that the chance of being shot on duty is higher for a policeman than anyone else since they are dealing with criminals. Like a zoo keeper has a greater chance of steppingin Orangutan shit than most people.

[CJ7]

everyone in favor of a hardcore firefight between a teacher holding a pistol and a person on a death mission armed with (several pistol/s? and an automatic rifle with 15-20 children in the room please raise your hand....


personally, I favor an M2 mounted on a turret, bolted to the top of the teachers desk with several 1000 round cans at the ready ..

eos

[Budman]

Originally Posted by CJ7

everyone in favor of a hardcore firefight between a teacher holding a pistol and a person on a death mission armed with (several pistol/s? and an automatic rifle with 15-20 children in the room please raise your hand....


personally, I favor an M2 mounted on a turret, bolted to the top of the teachers desk with several 1000 round cans at the ready ..

eos

That's a pretty stupid statement. Nobody is in favor of a lunatic storming a school and killing anyone but if I was in the school I would certainly prefer to have a weapon if a lunatic does decide to pay a visit.

Now I would be in favor of a hardcore firefight between a teacher and a lunatic in the middle of school if the alternative is the lunatic lining everyone up and going down the line shooting them.

[markroxny]

[Yssup Rider]

That's a great photo of Governor Dipshit, Mark. I suppose I want my kids to be exposed to gun toting teachers in school. That's what they need to see from their second highest authority figure (third if you want to count Jesus!). I'm trying to think of which of my elementary school teachers would have been able to thwart a madman on a shooting spree. Most of them called a substitute teacher in when they had cramps... Get the fuck over this lunacy. Guns aren't the issue. And MORE guns isn't any kind of solution.

More guns simply means more shooting and more killing.

NO guns means NO shooting.

Do the math boys.

[Budman]

Originally Posted by Yssup Rider

... Guns aren't the issue. ...

That's the only thing you got right.