Testosterone I'm a big fan!

[SpiceItUp]

Originally Posted by dfwfunguy1818

I have been doing the Testosterone injections now since last summer. Only the first two weeks did I feel a difference. My blood level initially was under 200 and four weeks later it was in the 800 range, 4 weeks after that it was over 1200 and it seemed like i was being accused of taking some elsewhere, then 4 weeks later i was near 300... I am waiting on another 4 weeks to take the blood test again.

The dr that gives the injections is thinking I might need an anti-depressant now...but I don't want to take that. Do you think they just need to increase the levels or maybe the type of testosterone they are administering isn't being aborbed by my body correctly?

I would like to hear from others...it is a little frustrating.

I'm by no means trying to put myself forth as a subject matter expert nor am I a physician I'm merely providing a basic primer. I encourage you to do your own research to confirm my assertions.

With that said, I will tell you that you haven't provided enough information to even formulate an opinion. What else is being tested and what are those numbers, i.e. Estradiol, SBHG, Free T? What dosage are you on and at what intervals? Also, are those labs done at peak or trough? It is best to always do labs one day before your scheduled injection (this would be your trough level) to be sure you don't drop to subnormal levels at any point. Large hormonal swings do sometimes result in adverse emotional side effects (e.g. depression, mood swings, etc...)

The fact that your labs seem to be all over the place possibly indicates an inconsistent testing protocol resulting in pointlessly trying to compare and draw meaningful conclusions from 3 blood draws at various points in the peak-trough cycle.

With testosterone cypionate and testosterone enanthate, peak serum levels are reached approximately 48 hours after injection and drop to subnormal levels after 7-10 days and baseline levels after 14 days. If your body's natural testosterone production has been shut down with TRT your baseline is very low.

Schiavi, Raul C., et al. "Effect of testosterone administration on sexual behavior and mood in men with erectile dysfunction." Archives of sexual behavior 26.3 (1997): 231-241.

Remember, the ideal administration will minimize the oscillations between peak and trough levels. If you could inject every single day that would best mimic the body's natural production. Since that's not practical once a week is fine, but many do it every third day. Some doctors want to do an injection every 2 weeks and others even out to a month but that betrays either a lack of understanding about the metabolism and absorption characteristics or about the negative side effects of wide hormonal oscillations.

Longer intervals also increase aromatization to Estradiol. High Estradiol also can have negative emotional side effects. Often the answer to lowering E is simply to increase the injection frequency.

This board is probably not the place to discuss case specific inquiries which are better directed toward those who are subject matter experts. I recommend this forum.

[dawg1]

I too am administering my own injections at home once a week and have had wonderful results over the last six months, and the Dr. still is fine tuning the dosage as well as monitoring and discussing my labs in great detail.

Something I found interesting is she encourages me to give blood as often as I can in order to reduce the texture of my blood? Did I even say that right?

My insurance does not cover the testosterone cypionate in 200 mg/m either, but the vile does last me about three months. I have found Costco to be the cheapest with them selling it as low as $64 and they only charge $0.10 per syringe. Beats the hell out of CVS which was around $100 for the same stuff.

[userb1]

Originally Posted by dawg1

Something I found interesting is she encourages me to give blood as often as I can

yes, you need to because test will increase your RBC/hematocrit, donating blood will keep it within range and keep it from getting too high.

[Guest102816-1]

Great thread. I was thinking about starting one recently (in the Men's Lounge) because I couldn't find a good current thread on the testosterone topic. There were some extensive ones, but they were a couple years old. Looks like this one covers a lot—different methods, pros & cons, etc.

I'm 50 and due a checkup. The last 2 times I had my T checked, I was okay (can't remember my number). I was surprised, because I have the symptoms—not as much the sexual stuff (although there's no mistaking that I'm not in my high-revving 30s anymore), but definitely the daily energy levels and some weight gain.

Nice work guys.

[OldGrump]

How do the injections compare to an insulin shot? I understand they need a good muscle such as buttocks or thigh.

[chipslinger]

What syringes/needles are you guys using? I use a 1" 18ga needle to draw into a 1ml insulin syringe then switch to a 25ga 1" needle to inject. I swear i can barely feel the injections in my thighs. I actually split my weekly dose and do 2 injections per week, attempting to keep my levels more stable. I alternate legs each time and move around in about a 4" circle to limit scar tissue build up.

It's more expensive this way, but i buy the syringe with 25ga on it in a 100ct box and get 100 18ga needles at the same time. If I remember right, it was about $35 for the dual needle setup and a box of alcohol wipes at CVS last time i had to buy. I need to look into the price at Costco, which is where I get my. Test Cyp in the 10ml bottle as well.

Chip

[SpiceItUp]

Originally Posted by OldGrump

How do the injections compare to an insulin shot? I understand they need a good muscle such as buttocks or thigh.

Insulin is injected subcutaneously (SC injection), testosterone is traditionally administered intramuscularly (IM). Some studies have been done and many TRT patients' anecdotal reports regarding subcutaneous testosterone administration with insulin slin pins. This theoretically allows lower dose shots to be administered more frequently (daily) with less discomfort but, IM is the traditional and well studied method.

Injections can be done into any large muscle group such as shoulders, thighs, and buttocks. The most common site for self-injection is one of the quad muscles, specifically the vastus lateralis located on the outer part of the thigh in the middle third between the hip and the knee..



When a third party injects, it is often easier to use one of the gluteal muscles, specifically the gluteus minimus located in the upper outer quadrant of the buttock.



Alternative sites can also be used such as the deltoid muscle which forms a triangle on the upper outer part of the arm.

[dawg1]

I too use a 18ga needle to draw into a 1ml insulin syringe then switch to a 21ga 1-1/2" needle to inject deep into my thigh, alternating legs each week.

[SpiceItUp]

Injections should be done using the Z-track method using a thin needle (23-25 gauge) and slow rate of delivery (10+ seconds).

The thinner the needle the less pain but also slower flow rate since testosterone is in an oil suspension and it is rather thick. A slow rate of delivery is desirable, however, as it limits muscular damage as well as lowers pain. Much of the reason a nurse administered IM injection hurts is because they typically use a 21 gauge needle and inject 1ml in 1-2 seconds. Giving the muscle time to open up and absorb the oil is vastly preferred.

A 25 gauge needle will allow almost pain free administration with an acceptable flow rate of 1 ml/cc over 10-15 seconds. If you don't happen to hit a blood vessel in the subcutaneous layer it is 100% pain free.

Drawing with an 18 or 21 gauge needle will reduce fill time and switching to a 25 gauge for the injection ensures a perfectly sharp point. Just the puncture of a thin needle through the rubber stopper of the vial will dull the point leading to more discomfort upon injection.

Additional Reading:
Malkin, B. "Are techniques used for intramuscular injection based on research evidence?." Nursing times 104.50-51 (2008): 48.

[ftango4]

Spice, one more question if I may; thinking about switching from the androgel to the shots due to cost. How do I figure out cypionate vs enanthate? My doc is just a internal med guy that is no test. expert. He was willing to give me the 1% Androgel script and monitor all of the levels but I think that may be the extent of his scope of knowledge on the topic. thx

[SpiceItUp]

Originally Posted by ftango4

Spice, one more question if I may; thinking about switching from the androgel to the shots due to cost. How do I figure out cypionate vs enanthate? My doc is just a internal med guy that is no test. expert. He was willing to give me the 1% Androgel script and monitor all of the levels but I think that may be the extent of his scope of knowledge on the topic. thx

No worries, often an internal medicine guy with an open mind and updated information is better than an endocrinologist who won't vary from what he learned in med school 30 years ago.


To your question:

They differ slightly chemically but for Testosterone Replacement Therapy purposes they are considered equivalent as they are both long acting esters. Testosterone Enanthate is more popular outside the U.S. and often comes in a 250 mg/ml concentration while Testosterone Cypionate is the most popular inside the U.S. and comes in 200 mg/ml concentration.

Cypionate is typically suspended in cottonseed oil while Enanthate is typically suspended in sesame oil. They can both be found in either oil depending upon the manufacturer.

"Testosterone enanthate and testosterone cypionate have similar pharmacokinetic profiles, duration of action, and therapeutic efficacy, so they are considered clinically equivalent."

Melmed, S., Polonsky, K. S., Larsen, P. R., & Kronenberg, H. M. (2011). Williams Textbook of Endocrinology: Expert Consult. Elsevier Health Sciences.

[ftango4]

Thanks. Appreciate the info.

[Eklutna]

I had that same problem. My T levels were getting sky high (over 1,100 sometimes), but so were my estradiol levels. The estradiol was coming out slightly out of range on the high side, whereas my baseline was at the low end of the normal range. I went from injecting .8 ml of T once a week to .6 ml weekly to .3 ml twice weekly to .2 ml twice weekly. At the same time I increased the Tamoxifen to keep the estradiol down. Less T plus more estradiol suppressant made a huge difference. FYI, I went to the twice weekly injections to keep the hormone levels more stable and avoid some of the ups and downs.

Originally Posted by dfwfunguy1818

I have been doing the Testosterone injections now since last summer. Only the first two weeks did I feel a difference. My blood level initially was under 200 and four weeks later it was in the 800 range, 4 weeks after that it was over 1200 and it seemed like i was being accused of taking some elsewhere, then 4 weeks later i was near 300... I am waiting on another 4 weeks to take the blood test again.

The dr that gives the injections is thinking I might need an anti-depressant now...but I don't want to take that. Do you think they just need to increase the levels or maybe the type of testosterone they are administering isn't being aborbed by my body correctly?

I would like to hear from others...it is a little frustrating.

[singleagain45]

I want to point out the several people have talked about how expensive the gels are. A compounding pharmacy will custom compound the perscription for about $75 a month. That beats the heck out of $400 a month. Still, the gel is not going to take you to levels that turn a 45 yr old into a 25 yr old. At least it didn't for me.

[Hillbilly]

I started taking testosterone cypionate 200mg/cc a little over 2 years ago. I take 2 shots a week at 0.5cc per shot. I use a 18 gauge needle to draw it and a 25 gauge to shoot it into my upper leg muscle. I buy U100 insulin syringes from BD that have the ability to change the needle. Works perfectly and doesn't really hurt most of the time unless you hit a nerve.. I take the excess that remains in the draw needle and syringe and blow it out onto my wrist and rub it in.

The best way to give yourself a shot is to throw the needle in quickly and push the medicine slowly.

Testosterone cypionate is a bio-identical hormone--it is very important that the T you take be bio-identical.

I get mine at CVS for about $116 a bottle (mfg Watson) and after my deductible is met, my insurance will pay 80% of that $116. The Watson stuff comes in a dark amber bottle. It is important to keep it away from light and heat otherwise it will lose its potency.

It has made a world of difference in my life. At nearly 53 my libido is back to what it was when I was 18. My little pecker will get hard as rock now and I can pop multiple times per night if given enough time between pops. I was able to drop my antidepressant dosage by 2/3rds, and every morning I wake up old one eye is looking back at me again!! I have energy now too.

There are some things you must do to keep the T from aromatasing back into estrogen. A build up of estrogen in your body is not good. You can get man titties and blood clots!

1. Take zinc chelate daily to block the T to E path. 50mg 2 times per day. I use Douglas Laboratories for this one.

2. Take DIM daily to rid your body of bad estrogen. I take 300mg a day of this. I get it at the Vitamin Shoppe

Keep an eye out on your hemocrit level. If your estrogen level goes up and you have high hemocrit, you can get blood clots--same thing that happens to women on birth control pills.

Like I said, it is very important to block the T to E aromatase path and to pull the bad estrogen out of your system.

The prostate cancer shit is a myth--there are no case studies on it whatsoever. The American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine recommends a total T level no more than 1100 and your Free T should be from 21-33. My total T level is around 1000 to 1100 and my free T is around 25. I feel fucking fantastic now.

http://www.a4m.com/

When you go get checked it is important to do it just before your shot so you won't spike the reading!

Also, pellets are BAD. They cause you to spike and then drop off quickly.

Injections are the best way. I take mine every 3.5 days....Monday Morning and Thursday Evening. This keeps your level constant and your dooder happy!!

I have lost over 50 lbs since I started mine and I have muscles now I never thought I would have. I have had low T my whole life and did not know it. It is a major cause of depression in older men. It is good for your heart too as it increases muscle strength.

Creams and gels typically don't work well because they aromatase into estrogen.

I learned all this shit from my now ex-girlfriend who specializes in anti-aging medicine. My doctor is on board with her findings in me.

I just saw a provider last night that I had not seen in 2 years since I started taking this stuff. She was amazed at the difference in my body. She noticed my arms right off the bat as to how big they have gotten. I can't button a size 17.5 inch collar on a dress shirt anymore. I need an 18" collar if I have to wear a tie.

As far as I am concerned, it is the fountain of youth for old dudes like me!!! I just got my rotator cuff fixed and it has healed. Now I can start pumping some iron and add more muscle mass!

Lets hear it for anti-aging medicine!

Also, if you have high homocyctine levels, they cause you to have ED issues. Take a shitload of B6, B12, and folic acid (B9) vitamins to drop this.

Hope this helps. Happy fucking for us older men!