Health Care

[WTF]

Originally Posted by Rudyard K

Nah. Been working on filling the cash register.

Well I've heard it called allot of things....but that about fits it to a tee!

[atlcomedy]

Originally Posted by pjorourke

Preferably, it would involve scrapping the employer paid market -- this could be done with a law that says as of today (i.e., the date proposed) and $'s spent on healthcare or other employee benefits must be converted to cash salary on a per capita basis (subject to rules proscribed by the Treasury that reflect age/health and other underwriting factors). That locks in the current employer contributions and gets rid of this "free benefit" insanity.

Then you add a per taxpayer (i.e., married filing joint get two) refundable tax credit (payable monthly) which has an aggregate value equal to the money that will be raised from the new taxable income. That would immediately level the playing field and give everyone an equal dollar benefit (not increasing with income). If you have a gold plated health plan, you will pay a little more tax. If you have an average plan, it will be about a wash. If you dont have a plan, you will get the full credit. BTW, you only get the credit if you have insurance -- getting over that constitutional issue of mandated purchase. (of course, this would be a great time to also consider a flat tax.)

Then get rid of the state based limitations on sales and policy requirements and make insurers get rid of their underwriting restriction (or significantly reduce them) so everyone can buy a policy that fits their needs. Policies should have significant cost sharing per service and annual deductibles and out of pocket limits tied to income. You want the gold plated one that covers everything -- its gonna cost you a ton, but its your choice and your problem -- dont expect me to pay for it. I'm sure the carriers will be very creative in developing bare bone policies that fit within the cost of the credit and designing web and employment based mechanisms to sign people up and to arrange for the credit to go directly from the government to them -- eliminating a ton of costs in the process.

as if your ego hasn't been stoked enough this morning, I'll pile on & add I could live with this I think blowing up the employer paid system is critical to making this work but it is easier said than done. That said I think most business owners/senior managers would tell you privately they'd love to get out of the business of providing health care if it didn't make them the 'bad guy' or place them at a competitive disadvantage.

Related to that, I have to laugh at all of these corporate drones with gold (or at least silver)-plated policies that naively watch all of this and believe if there was some kind of "public option" that it wouldn't impact them because their employer would never go for it.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by atlcomedy

That said I think most business owners/senior managers would tell you privately they'd love to get out of the business of providing health care if it didn't make them the 'bad guy' or place them at a competitive disadvantage.

Fuc yea they do....the cost are skyrocketing. We have an older population. In that regard we are at a competitive disadvantage in regards to world manufacturing.

[pjorourke]

Originally Posted by WTF

Fuc yea they do....the cost are skyrocketing. We have an older population. In that regard we are at a competitive disadvantage in regards to world manufacturing.

Riggghhhtttt!!!! So paying for health care out of their left pocket (via taxes) is cheaper than their right pocket (wages).

BTW WTF, I found some good news for you: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/he...itzerland.html

[atlcomedy]

Originally Posted by WTF

In that regard we are at a competitive disadvantage in regards to world manufacturing.

Clearly....but it isn't just manufacturing and it isn't just the world...just look at all of the Fortune 500 Cos. with gold-plated health plans (and a culture that holds that all employees are vaulable & a health plan is an unalienable right ) that are outsoucing just about every function they can -- some overseas, some just down the street -- to realize cost savings -- total labor costs being a big one. Believe me these 3rd Parties have a health plan nothing like the place the jobs came from...

[npita]

Originally Posted by pjorourke

Preferably, it would involve scrapping the employer paid market

That and (most everything else in your post) is probably true. However, the complexity of the current system has nothing to do with health care and everything to do with who benefits from the complexity, so making it simple and equitable will never happen.

[Egrbvr]

Originally Posted by npita

That and (most everything else in your post) is probably true. However, the complexity of the current system has nothing to do with health care and everything to do with who benefits from the complexity, so making it simple and equitable will never happen.

Kind of like our tax laws!

[WTF]

Originally Posted by atlcomedy

Clearly....but it isn't just manufacturing and it isn't just the world...just look at all of the Fortune 500 Cos. with gold-plated health plans (and a culture that holds that all employees are vaulable & a health plan is an unalienable right ) that are outsoucing just about every function they can -- some overseas, some just down the street -- to realize cost savings -- total labor costs being a big one. Believe me these 3rd Parties have a health plan nothing like the place the jobs came from...

Fella's I been for McCain's plan before McCain was! LOL You cat's forget I been playing in that pigstye called the HPF for to damn long.

I understand the gold plated crap. Even the GOP tried to scare people saying that taxing people's income (it is income) was a bad thing.

The tax code is really another HUGE problem. A whole 'nother thread.

Anyway, I agree with you two. But I want CHANGE. The GOP had plenty of time to avert this. They (Dems) will shove this through and it will not be the end of the world as we know it. Despite what some on the right think.

[Iaintliein]

When the Constiution was ratified back in 1788 the central position of the Federal Government in providing health insurance to the citizens and anyone fortunate enough to illude border security was emphatically. . . absent.

This is none of the federal government's business, pointing to other programs like Medicare which is also none of the federal government's business is like legalizing theft becasue the theif had previously not been caught.

When I was born the cost of health care moved at the same rate as general inflation, them something magical happened in the '60's and again in the '80's, Big brother decided to get involved. The graph in the attached link points directly to the role in the Federal Government in driving up the cost of health care.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/...se_of_hea.html

Why is it that people want the same government that will spend $700 on a toilet seat to run health care anyway?

Regards,

[WTF]

Originally Posted by Iaintliein

Why is it that people want the same government that will spend $700 on a toilet seat to run health care anyway?

Regards,

That was the Defense Department that bought that seat. Do you want to abolish them also?

Oh wait...was that that theif you were talking about that isn't a theif because the constitution he is not?

[Marcus Aurelius]

Originally Posted by WTF

That was the Defense Department that bought that seat. Do you want to abolish them also?

Oh wait...was that that theif you were talking about that isn't a theif because the constitution he is not?

Eh?

[WTF]

Originally Posted by Marcus Aurelius

Eh?

I goes to the point of how some cats love spending my tax dollar on projects I think are a huge waste of money. All in the name of the constitution. A bloated military is no better than a bloated healthcare system.

Come on MA, keep up!

[Iaintliein]

WTF,
My last post on this, to address the strawman you always like to prop up.
Google this: Constitution, Common Defense
Then this: Constitution, Common Cold

I agree we spend far too much on the military, these expensive smart weapons to spare collateral damage is a huge waste, napalm and cluster bombs are much cheaper, and for real "bang for your buck" maybe it's time to re-establish the deterrence of good ole fashion nukes, how 'bout that?

Regards,

[Marcus Aurelius]

Well, then we would need a good old fashioned war wouldn't we.
Flags here, flags there, etc.

[charlestudor2005]

Originally Posted by Iaintliein

When the Constiution was ratified back in 1788 the central position of the Federal Government in providing health insurance to the citizens and anyone fortunate enough to illude border security was emphatically. . . absent.

This is none of the federal government's business, pointing to other programs like Medicare which is also none of the federal government's business is like legalizing theft becasue the theif had previously not been caught.

This is somewhat flawed logic. Just because something is absent from the Constitution doesn't mean that it should be none of the federal government's business.

For instance, just because planes aren't mentioned in the Constitution, doesn't mean there should not be an FAA and a uniform way of directing air traffic.

Likewise, at the time of the writing of the Constitution, people who owned real property owned it from the center of the earth to the heavens. Obviously, that isn't practical any longer. Between the airways above real property and the water rights underneath real property, law has changed.

The Constitution was not meant to be a static document, relevant only to those things that existed in 1788, but rather a living document, whose timeless principles can be applied to human advancements.

I believe in the Constitution and its ability to keep us moving forward.