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SASpurfan · 06-21-2009, 11:06 PM

From my point of view, AMEN to what Reese stated. And Fawn, we love you too.

SAS

TheHorseTrainer · 06-21-2009, 11:43 PM

Proud - no
Ashamed - No.

What would I say if my son's decided to see a escort? Well Ok .. but he better damn well treat them right and never ever abuse a womans body.

Nebekenezer · 06-22-2009, 04:14 AM

I have so much I'd like to say, but I'm posting from my iPhone right now, and it's a bitch and a half to make long posts from it.

I do want to make one point- saying something is "wrong" simply because it is "illegal", is NOT intellectual honesty. It is intellectual laziness. The list of things that are/were illegal that should not be is a mile long.

fawn · 06-22-2009, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FatManHobbyist

Wondering if I will ever be able to be morally honest as well.

no matter how much a mother can justify this, we know it is morally wrong,
we aren't saying it isn't..... we just want you to see another side to the coin..
and Reese youre right, who said it is wrong all the bible thumpers that are
scared of sexuality, or the government that wants a cut of our money...
and if they could figure out how to do that it would be legal......you can
bet that......

Nebekenezer · 06-22-2009, 10:17 AM

Ok, this is likely to be a long and rambling post, so I hope I don't step on anyone's toes, this is just my take on things (I've highlighted the parts I want to tackle):

Quote:

Originally Posted by Introuble

This job is different because it is illegal and from a societal perspective unacceptable. Sacking groceries, working at a bank, or repairing cars is not........I would have assumed that was obvious.

While I agree with the "wrongness" of the hobby from a societal perspective, it is obvious that I have mastered hypocrisy in my participation in it. I do not believe it should be against the law as regulating morality is impossible and the attempts to control it have never worked well. Undeniably however are the negative aspects of the hobby such as broken families, drugs that seems to always be close by, the physical abuse of BF and pimps, the low "societal" self-esteem that is common to both hobbyists and provider etc. It is from those items that laws have been created.

I would argue that aside from the "Judeo-Christain morals" that seem to always be in play, that a larger more direct influence is at play too. The fear of destroying the nuclear family unit due to a man's (or women's) lust for the carnal pleasures many are deprived of. The sanctity of marriage (family) is in many eyes more the reason than religious beliefs and participation in the hobby is seen as an attack on the family values.

American culture just seems to have a thing for a Sodom and Gomorrah community where everyone is running rampant with legalized and uncontrolled sexual urges. From that perspective I have to agree. I would not want a red light district with legalized prostitutes in Dallas. Nevada is bad enough.

Nevada is expensive and the quality is much worse that Dallas.

Ok, as I stated in a post above, it's is just plain laziness (intellectually speaking) on your part to call something "wrong" just because it is "illegal". In fact, as one of your arguements against the hobby, you bring up the destruction of the "nuclear family" (whatever that means in this day and age), but there are NO LAWS against adultery. Does that make adultery right or wrong? I would assume you would say "wrong", but if so, then why no laws against it as long as we are trying to save the "nuclear family"?

If you want to talk about intellectual honesty, you need to decide, for yourself, what is morally right and what is morally wrong. My own personal definition of morality is that people (consenting adults) should be allowed to do whatever they feel like doing, as long as they are not hurting someone else. When my wife was alive, she asked me one time if I would leave her if I found out she had "cheated" on me. I simply told her that I could very easily forgive her having sex with someone else. The sex would NEVER be the issue. The issue would be the "lying" that accompanied the affair. If she, however, told me what happened, and was upfront and honest about it, then I could forgive almost anything. But if she lied to me, and I was unable to trust her any longer, then there would be no reason for us to stay married.

That is truly how I felt then, and how I feel now. There are plenty of people in the hobby (and out of it, frankly), who lie to their spouse or SO every day. That is not something I would do, and is something I would consider "immoral", but the lying is not CAUSED by the hobby. The hobby is merely a byproduct of people not wanting to stay faithful to their spouse/SO. If this thing called the "hobby" did not exist, if there were no such thing as providers, spouses would still cheat on one another. Therefore, the "hobby" has never once caused the destruction of the "nuclear family".

You also mention drugs, abuse, pimps, etc, but once again, those things are not caused by the hobby. People that do drugs, or are abusive, etc, would do so in or out of the hobby. Does the hobby attract some "less than desirable" characters? Sure, but I would argue it has more to with the social stigma placed on the hobby, and the illegalization of it as well. If the hobby were more out in the open, then there would be no need for pimps, for example, and someone who had a drug problem, or was abused, would be more likely to get the help they needed if they knew that they were not going to be ostracized for their choice of jobs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Introuble

We are getting to the point of discussing good parenting and bad parenting which is maybe a tad off target. The statement of the industry being wrong is wrought with examples of exceptions to the rules where some good is being accomplished as a result of breaking the law.

I do not believe however that one can make a case with any scenario and justify the hobby to the extent of it being "right".

Example:
1) I provide for my kids by being a HOOKER therefore the hobby is OK because it provides the income to buy my kids clothes, send them to college, etc. I love my kids enough to do that therefore I am a good parent.

2) Substitute HOOKER with Robbing Banks, Stealing from Rich people who don't need it, Cheating on my IRS returns, or numerous other illegal activities that are considered "soft" crimes and basically victimless.

The fact of the matter is regardless of how you try to justify it, it is still engaging in an illegal activity no matter what the justification for doing so. If we as a society are to the point of saying it is OK to break the laws in order to be fruitful parents then we have a new topic for a new thread.

My observations are simply mine and that of 90% of society. You can always use examples of good intentions as a result of bad actions to justify one persons actions.

And yes, even if they made prostitution legal, it would still have at a minimum morality problems. Even if it were legal, I would love my kids no less than I already do, but I would not approve of it and it would be known very forcefully.

If you are wondering, I am trying to schedule my weekly session right after this post. Hypocrisy is a wonderful thing isn't it?

Great philosophical thread BTW

Here you say that you can't think of a scenario where the hobby is "right", and go on to equate it with "robbing banks, Stealing from Rich people who don't need it, Cheating on my IRS returns, or numerous other illegal activities that are considered "soft" crimes and basically victimless". Those are ridiculous examples, as they are FAR from "victimless" crimes. If you steal money, that money has to come from someone that did not CONSENT to you taking it from them, if you cheat on your IRS returns, you are refusing to pay for services that we all enjoy and are for the greater good (poice, fire, roads, military, social security, just to name a few).

If a provider and a hobbyist decide to schedule some time together, then the only ones that need be involved are the provider and the hobbyist. They are two CONSENTING adults. The hobbyist has a need, and the provider has a service that fulfills that need. Quid pro quo. No harm, no foul. If the hobbyist is sneaking around and lying to his or her spouse/SO, it has NOTHING to do with the hobby. It has everything to do with the hobbyist and their spouse/SO. Again, the hobbyist CONSENTED to paying the provider for sex, and must therefore deal with whatever consequences come from that choice. It is the hobbyist's fault for not being honest with their spouse/SO, it is NOT the fault of the "hobby".

Furthermore, not only does the hobby NOT destroy the nuclear family, I would argue that it makes it harder for the cheating spouse/SO to destroy said family. Think how much easier it would be to just boink the secretary, or the MILF next door, or pick up some strange at a club. With the hobby, if you go the ASPD/P411 route, it takes a long damn time to start seeing providers as a newbie (trust me, I'm going through it now). If you want to go the BP/CL route, then you have to deal with all the pitfalls and problems that come with that. It is NOT easy to get started in this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Introuble

Fawn, I am sorry you are getting emotional about this. I have said from day one that I am a hypocrite's hypocrite on the topic and have readily admitted a few times that I am talking out of both sides of my mouth in so many words. As a parent I am no better than anyone else here and have made it a point to admit my faults in this issue too. My only position in this whole argument is that the hobby from a legal, moral, and somewhat parental standpoint is wrong. My participation in the hobby is kind of like the alcoholic knowing it is wrong to drink and drive but yet still drinking and driving. I AM NOT IN DENIAL ABOUT WHAT THE HOBBY IS AND ISN'T nor am I pretending it to be right to justify my participation in it.......as some are. I know it is wrong EVEN THOUGH I still participate in it. My hope is that others would be just as intellectually honest about it as I am trying to be. If not that is OK too, but I do not buy the argument that this is what I do in order to provide for my kids. That may be a choice, but it is not the only choice either. I have the utmost respect for any person doing "what they have to do" in order to provide as a parent, but there are OTHER choices too that are brought on many times by our EARLIER and CURRENT decisions in life. Need I expand?

I am sorry I hit a nerve as I felt everyone was keeping civil in a very interesting and thought provoking discussion. My apologies if I stepped on your toes in some way.

The highlighted portion above is one of your more ridiculous points. The reason it is WRONG to drink and drive is because you can very easily kill yourself, and/or a family of 6 on vaction in their station wagon. If a drunk passes out behind the wheel, and kills himself/herself, then the family of that person is devastated, and has to deal with all the issues that come along with that spouse's death. If they kill the family of 6 in their station wagon, those problems are just compounded.

Once again, the hobbyist and the provider are CONSENTING adults that are hurting NO ONE by exchanging money for sex. Even if you argue that the hobbyist can bring home an STD to an otherwise innocent spouse/SO, I would argue that contracting an STD would have more to do with the poor CHOICES that the hobbyist (and the provider as well) made. Again, as CONSENTING adults, we are allowed to make choices in life. Some with be good, some with be bad, but we should get to make them ourselves, not have them dictated to us by the government, or the church, or anyone else under the ambiguous umbrella of "morality".

Quote:

Originally Posted by fawn

no matter how much a mother can justify this, we know it is morally wrong, we aren't saying it isn't..... we just want you to see another side to the coin.. and Reese youre right, who said it is wrong all the bible thumpers that are scared of sexuality, or the government that wants a cut of our money...and if they could figure out how to do that it would be legal......you can bet that......

Well, I am saying it is not morally wrong. You have a right, Fawn, to provide for your family the best way you know how. As long as you are comfortable with what you are doing (and it seems you are), and as long you aren't hurting someone else, you should be allowed to make your own choices.

The only thing that is immoral, IMO, is when others try to dictate THEIR morality on to someone else.

Well...that's it. I've said what I had to say, and while I know it won't necessarily change people's mind one way or the other, I hope I at least gave some people some things to think about.

Introuble · 06-22-2009, 11:37 AM

Nebekenezer:
I appreciate your well thought out and articulated argument against my beliefs and observations. While many of my examples may or may not have had enough explanation, I was not trying to write a book either and with that probably lost some meaning.

One great thing about America and the hobby as far as that goes, we can agree to disagree on many issues and still be "brothers and sisters" for the cause. While my participation in the hobby goes against everything I believe (and many other silent readers), I still participate in it because the carnal lusts and desires are much stronger than my soul can deal with. Is this not the case with mankind overall for thousands of years? Is this not the reason that many societies outlaw what we are doing, and at the same time many condone it from a "legal" standpoint.

I would suggest that even in societies where it is legal such as Germany, Holland, Nevada (if you want to call it a society) it is more an issue of you can't fight it, so we will regulate and tax it. Those societies while tolerant of it, by in large do not agree with it. They simply have chosen to ignore it, and let people do what they want to do. But society as a whole does not approve of the hobby anywhere in the world.

As I have said, I have mixed emotions about it, my involvement in it, and the "right and wrong" aspects of the hobby. This discussion that I have been a participant in has not been MY condemnation of the hobby, but rather ONE person's observations of it.

You stated "Therefore, the "hobby" has never once caused the destruction of the "nuclear family". I would agree with that to the extent that a gun is not responsible for murder but rather the PERSON behind the gun. In this example I agree with you in that the hobby does not destroy families, but rather the participants involved in it do. It is their decisions to be involved (or pick up the gun) that does the harm. Maybe we are in agreement there?

I will point out one thing you stated. My reference to the alcoholic was not a comparison of the DAMAGE they cause as you referenced in your example, but rather the inward struggle and fight for ones soul that all addictions cause at some point. In other words, you know you should not do it, but lacking the will power and self control....you do it anyway.

Again, I appreciate your well thought out response. At the end of the day, we go see our favorite provider, we spend money to have a good time (right or wrong) and all parties benefit from that perspective. The side effects are personal.

Guest030911 · 06-22-2009, 01:09 PM

If you can't tell your family about it, it is wrong...

Too simpliifed?

OG-Slippery · 06-22-2009, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cpi3000

If you can't tell your family about it, it is wrong...

Too simpliifed?

Would you tell your children or your mother about the intimate details of your relationship with your wife?

Your test has merit but it isn't absolute.

guest041110 · 06-22-2009, 01:35 PM

Interesting read folks and I am the last one that should write what I did below given I am here with you on this site but I have never been one to hold back on my thoughts or opinions. I have read such completely wrong statements that I will put my stamp on this discussion to wit:

Is prostitution wrong, either legally or morally?

You better believe it is on both points above. In this country, it is only legal in Nevada and then only in certain sections of Nevada. It is not accepted morally in the world outside of the one this site serves and there is a reason why people fall into this realm such as the likes of Jimmy Swaggart to the Elliot Spitzer’s of the real world but that is a different topic of discussion.

It is intellectual laziness to call something wrong when society has said it illegal?

It is not intellectual laziness to call something wrong when society has said its societal morays holds that a specific item is wrong and illegal. To write otherwise is to show that one is working in denial as well as not being in the present. Calling a spade a spade is what one should do if they have integrity.

Is there no law against adultery?

Yes there most certainly is a law against adultery but it is not against the law of man rather it is against the Law of God. I would think someone who took their signon name from the great Babylonian king of 605-562 B.C. would know this since The Bible has a direct commandment against adultery; they are not the 10 suggestions either, so there is most definitely a law against adultery.

Is it the religious community, or the bible thumpers, that are writing, or saying, that prostitution, or whoredom, is wrong?

Not by a long shot. It is the word of The Lord that says that, not the people that follow Him. The people that follow Him repeat what The Lord gave as a way to live therefore it is His words that say prostitution as well as sex outside of marriage, i.e. fornication, adultery, is wrong and against His word. Before anyone starts writing about prostitution being right and wrong, you better get your facts right and know not only the laws of man but also the laws of God before writing.

===========
===========
What everybody that has written those things here either forgets, or does not know, is sex was given to man as a gift to be shared between a husband and a wife. There is a reason why sexual sin is the most pervasive and pernicious of all sins. The Lord meant it as the way for two people, a man and a woman, to become one flesh with The Lord in the middle.

I cast no judgment on anyone here as I am not without sin myself however it would be really nice if all those posting would take the time to really understand what it is they are trying to express and verify their thoughts against the facts before posting them.

_________________________
Remember this:
Sin is pleasurable for a season. - Heb 11:23-26

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life…. Rom 6:23

Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. - Gal 6:7

Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven… Luke 6:37
_________________________

Introuble · 06-22-2009, 03:36 PM

It was suggested by my fellow hobbyist Nebekenezer that there are no laws against adultery. I submit the following link for review. It is certainly enough of a "lawless" act that divorces are built on it and granted in many states. Of course Texas being the exception as your wife can divorce you for picking your nose here. Adultery in Florida is a 2 year prison sentence and certainly punishable by death in some countries.

http://christianparty.net/adulterylaws.htm

Lonesome Dove - I was beginning to believe I was the only one with a sinful conscience.

guest041110 · 06-22-2009, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Introuble

It was suggested by my fellow hobbyist Nebekenezer that there are no laws against adultery. I submit the following link for review. It is certainly enough of a "lawless" act that divorces are built on it and granted in many states. Of course Texas being the exception as your wife can divorce you for picking your nose here. Adultery in Florida is a 2 year prison sentence and certainly punishable by death in some countries.

http://christianparty.net/adulterylaws.htm

Lonesome Dove - I was beginning to believe I was the only one with a sinful conscience.

Well, I do stand corrected on there not being laws of man against adultery as that site listed by you does show that to be the case. I do not know if that site is accurate since I have not spent the time to research those points of law however I do know that the UCMJ, for those that are not of a military background that stands for the Uniform Code of Military Justice, does prohibit fornication and adultery as an aritcle 134 will attest. As a matter of fact, those violations of the UCMJ will result in a dishonorable discharge as well as time in Leavenworth if one is convicted of them.

Introuble, we are all of a sinful nature.

09-18-2009, 12:15 PM

I am always amazed at how some expect us Providers to be ashamed of what we do. Or always believe that we wish this is something we did not have to do. Yes, there are a lot of girls, women and men that do this because they have too. But, there are many of us that do this for different reasons. Just because many think this is a bad choice…..doesn’t make that a truth for everyone.

Without demand for this profession, from many that look down their nose at us, we would not exist. Even if this profession did not exist there would still be divorce, abused women, men, cheaters, liars, molesters, murders etc… This profession is not the heart of any real society issues. Okay, because a Priest molest an altar boy does that make the entire religion bad? Not no but hell no!

That being said as with all things there is the good, the bad and the ugly side of this world. If my daughter, sister or any other young girl that I truly loved came to me for advice my suggestion would only be that she waits awhile until she is a little wiser to the ways of our world. She would need to understand her own limits, her own sexuality, not be in a position to rely on this profession to survive and moreover be confident enough not to let the opinions of others affect her self confidence. We all know there are vultures that prey on the young and weak minds. While some young ladies are wise beyond their years many are not. Honestly, there are vultures that prey on others regardless of their age and gender anyway, so, taking a little time to mature may help with protection.

Also, we all do things when we are young that we sometimes regret. Like getting a tattoo some things cannot be erased. So, unless this is strictly about the need to survive (which is a different story and I commend these survivors). Therefore again I would suggest they wait a few years to make sure this is something they can live with on down the line.

However, if she were in her mid to late twenties, had a little adult life behind her, educated, and desired to expand her horizons with endeavors that help enhance her life, then I would try to school her with any knowledge I have in efforts to help her accomplish her goals in a safe and yet successful way.

I still do not understand why any one feels the need to judge, control, or demand what two mentally stable consenting adults do behind closed doors.

And if we want to focus on the question "but parts of your profession is illegal". As mentioned above, so is adultery in most states - so why is this one particular law so much more enforced? That is just one example...

Yes, I am sure we live in a very hypocrital world.

Another thought....

Is it morally wrong? What freaking morals? I mean seriously there are more men and women that cheat with non-providers every darn day. Are we trying to say that if you are married and you pay someone who doesn't know you are married to spend time with you that makes Provider responsible or more morally wrong than the cheater themselves?

A cheater is going to cheat - again I will say that this profession is not the cause of any moral breakdown in our society. If anything in some cases it might be a product of a few things.

Introuble · 09-18-2009, 12:38 PM

I am too lazy to go back and read the pages of responses. I am not even sure what this thread was about originally.

I truly and wholeheartedly believe this industry is wrong. I admittedly am hypocritical because I choose to participate in it. Most would probably not take issue with that if being honest with themselves. For some, there is no problem with it at all. I am not sure how most people who have some type of religious involvement either actively or through growing up can honestly say there is nothing wrong with it. For those that see NO PROBLEM with this industry with the hurt and pain it causes many along with the obvious religious overtones, then I simply accept those as people the bible refers to as "hopeless sinners". They will never get it or understand it. It is also hard for some to participate in this hobby and admit publicly to themselves that their involvement is wrong. It is a conflict of the deepest parts of our souls.

It does break up families just as gambling, drugs and many other illicit and illegal activities do. Those that say it is the individuals fault, not the industries fault is naive in believing without one there would not be the other. In fairness to THAT argument some might choose to have an legitimate affair (is there such a thing?) as opposed to seeing a provider. At the same time, those very people would probably admit that were it not for a provider being available, they would probably NOT be committing adultery. Some might even agree with Jimmy Carter and say that jacking off or lusting at a pic is adultery of the heart but I digress.

In saying this, I would never put down a provider by saying they are evil, the "EVE" of our society, or blame them for MY problems in life. Certainly one can see however that without providers there would be no clients and vice versa. Sort of like the chicken and the egg debate that we have had since we discovered where eggs come from.

09-18-2009, 12:56 PM

Introuble-I do believe each of us have the rights to our own opinions. I also believe that we have the right to state our opinions without persecution. I understand and appreciate your thoughts.

I respect the opinions of those who believe this profession is wrong. Even at its best I realize parts of it are just not the most "righteous" thing to do. I can or will not deny the fact that I help partake in activities with SOME that could hurt others with our actions. This is one reason I try not to get too involved with my friends and to keep clear cut lines of seperation. Understanding and appreciating your need for discretion is very important to me. As I'd prefer not to see others get hurt.

If you believe in sins then you know we are all sinners. If you believe in God then you believe in forgiveness and the concept of not judging others…..

My biggest point and problem with those who snarl at us is that they act as though they are better or without sin!

I like the fact that you admit you believe parts of what you do is wrong. That is taking personal ownership and responsibility for your actions in life.

guest041110 · 09-18-2009, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SummerBella

...
Just because many think this is a bad choice…..doesn’t make that a truth for everyone.
....

Truth is absolute, not relative such as you implied, and applies to everyone as is. What you described is an opinion which is relative and only applies if one has a specific point of view or set of similar experiences. It's easy to fall into the current thought of the street which confuses opinion with truth or using the terms as semantically equivalent which they are not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SummerBella

....again I will say that this profession is not the cause of any moral breakdown in our society. If anything in some cases it might be a product of a few things.

Partially right you are. I wrote paritially because in all cases participation in prostitution is the result of personal choices and a moral judgement for ones self. By making the jump to being either a supplier or a consumer of prositution, one has a ripple effect on society. Simple cause and effect.

** emphasis added in both quotes