House panel finds Obama and Clinton responsible for Benghazi errors

[NiceGuy53]

Originally Posted by flghtr65

IBH, you left out one piece of information. From the link that you provided, in the 8th paragraph, Operation Wide Receiver was the exact same program and from the same ATF field office. Operation Wide Receiver was run under Bush. IBH, did you skip over paragraph 8 or you just read up to paragraph 7? What this amouts to is two presidents running the same program with different names. IBH, go do some more homework.

No, nice try but not accurate. The link that IBH provided said the 2 programs "had some similarities". That is a far cry from "the exact same program" which you claimed this link said. When you accuse others of skipping over parts of this link, you should make sure you, yourself are not guilty of the same thing. As a matter of fact, you went much further than this. You mischaracterized what was actually said in this link to try to suit your own agenda. This link concludes that "Operation Wide Receiver is not the same thing as the Fast and Furious Program. We rate Obama's statement (and yours, I might add) False".

[Munchmasterman]

Originally Posted by JD Barleycorn

Lets be honest; under Bush's his Gun Runner program did not ship one weapon over the border before it was halted


Under Fast and Furious (Obama's project) over 2,000 weapons went into Mexico. Bush did not know about Fast and Furious. http://washingtonexaminer.com/holder...rticle/2500157 Eric Holder said so.

As for Bush, you keep using the word "impeach" but that is not what we were talking about. We are talking about you're bitching and moaning. Now I think Obama has broken the law. You're just a bitcher because you didn't like what Bush did legally and you won't give credit to the democrats in Congress for supporting him.

Yes, let's be honest.

Under Bush's program "Wide Receiver" illegal sales were made. Since no one can say where the weapons from that program ended up, saying no weapons crossed the border is un-provable and nothing more than your opinion.


"A program similar to Fast and Furious did go forward under the Bush administration in 2006 and 2007. That program, called Operation Wide Receiver, also attempted to track suspicious weapons. Allowing gun sales to go forward even when the ATF had probable cause to believe the sales were unlawful has come to be known as "gun walking."

The two operations -- Fast and Furious and Wide Receiver -- had some similarities, and both were run out of the ATF’s Phoenix Field Division. The inspector general explored both programs in depth and found similar problems.

"The risk to public safety was immediately evident in both investigations," the inspector general’s report states."

http://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2012/sep/24/barack-obama/barack-obama-said-fast-and-furious-began-under-bus/

Please post links to 2 times WTF has called for Bush to be impeached.

I'll wait until you fail to do so before I go into my usual rant about your constant lying, your failure to acknowledge your mistakes after you have been proven wrong, your constant mis-representing of facts, your constant lying by omission, your pussified habit of changing the subject when even you realize there is no place left to go and your seemingly complete lack of self respect and honor.

As for bitching and moaning, using your definition, I'd say you, whirly, and sog are the queens.

All of y'all constantly bitch about things you don't like.

Things you don't like that the Obama administration has done legally. Legally as defined by the U S Constitution and as defined by the SCOTUS.

Why do I say you 3 are the queens?

Because you have over 30,000 posts between the 3 of you. And while I'm sure there must be some positive Obama comments in there, finding them would be like searching for a needle in a hay field.

[Munchmasterman]

Originally Posted by NiceGuy53

No, nice try but not accurate. The link that IBH provided said the 2 programs "had some similarities". That is a far cry from "the exact same program" which you claimed this link said. When you accuse others of skipping over parts of this link, you should make sure you, yourself are not guilty of the same thing. As a matter of fact, you went much further than this. You mischaracterized what was actually said in this link to try to suit your own agenda. This link concludes that "Operation Wide Receiver is not the same thing as the Fast and Furious Program. We rate Obama's statement (and yours, I might add) False".

Here is what it says in the "Our Ruling" portion.

Another similar program, called Operation Wide Receiver, did happen during the Bush administration, and a recent inspector general’s report criticized both operations as ineffective and seriously flawed.

Some of the reasons for that ruling are;

"A program similar to Fast and Furious did go forward under the Bush administration in 2006 and 2007. That program, called Operation Wide Receiver, also attempted to track suspicious weapons. Allowing gun sales to go forward even when the ATF had probable cause to believe the sales were unlawful has come to be known as "gun walking."

The two operations -- Fast and Furious and Wide Receiver -- had some similarities, and both were run out of the ATF’s Phoenix Field Division. The inspector general explored both programs in depth and found similar problems.

"The risk to public safety was immediately evident in both investigations," the inspector general’s report states."


So while the programs were not identical, they were similar in scope and had similar problems.

Both programs were poorly conceived and executed.

Both programs posed risks to public safety.

[NiceGuy53]

Originally Posted by Munchmasterman

Here is what it says in the "Our Ruling" portion.

Another similar program, called Operation Wide Receiver, did happen during the Bush administration, and a recent inspector general’s report criticized both operations as ineffective and seriously flawed.

Some of the reasons for that ruling are;

"A program similar to Fast and Furious did go forward under the Bush administration in 2006 and 2007. That program, called Operation Wide Receiver, also attempted to track suspicious weapons. Allowing gun sales to go forward even when the ATF had probable cause to believe the sales were unlawful has come to be known as "gun walking."

The two operations -- Fast and Furious and Wide Receiver -- had some similarities, and both were run out of the ATF’s Phoenix Field Division. The inspector general explored both programs in depth and found similar problems.

"The risk to public safety was immediately evident in both investigations," the inspector general’s report states."


So while the programs were not identical, they were similar in scope and had similar problems.

Both programs were poorly conceived and executed.

Both programs posed risks to public safety.

LOL. Yeah, I can read. I do not need you or anyone else spelling it out for me.

What I was commenting on was the assertions that the Fast and Furious Program began under the Bush Administration and that Operation Wide Receiver was "the exact same program" as Fast and Furious. Both of these statements are False.

[Munchmasterman]

Originally Posted by NiceGuy53

LOL. Yeah, I can read. I do not need you or anyone else spelling it out for me.

What I was commenting on was the assertions that the Fast and Furious Program began under the Bush Administration and that Operation Wide Receiver was "the exact same program" as Fast and Furious. Both of these statements are False.

I agree. You are correct.

Me "spelling it out for" you was me adding the information I used to arrive at the statements I made. If you need it spelled out, it was there for you. If you didn't, ignore it.
But don't ignore the facts it contains in respect to other statements.

If you remove the word "exact" from the second statment, the phrase "the same program" is mostly true (Truth-O-Meter).

His (fightr65) choice of words made it false but the concept of both programs is mostly the same.

The objectives were mostly the same.

[IIFFOFRDB]

Originally Posted by CJ7

and that reminds me ...

At a hearing of the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform last Wednesday, Representative Darrell Issa, Republican of California and the committee’s chairman, talked of “examining security failures that led to the Benghazi tragedy.” He said lawmakers had an obligation to protect federal workers overseas. On Sunday, he said more should be spent on diplomatic security.
But as part of the Republican majority that has controlled the House the last two years, Mr. Issa joined in cutting nearly a half-billion dollars from the State Department’s two main security accounts. One covers things like security staffing, including local guards, armored vehicles and security technology; the other, embassy construction and upgrades. In 2011 and 2012, President Obama sought a total of $5 billion, and the House approved $4.5 billion. In 2009, Mr. Issa voted for an amendment that would have cut nearly 300 diplomatic security positions. And the draconian budgets proposed by Mitt Romney’s running mate, Representative Paul Ryan, would cut foreign affairs spending by 10 percent in 2013 and even more in 2016.

Here is the link. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/15/op...-no-shame.html

[NiceGuy53]

Originally Posted by Munchmasterman

I agree. You are correct.

Me "spelling it out for" you was me adding the information I used to arrive at the statements I made. If you need it spelled out, it was there for you. If you didn't, ignore it.
But don't ignore the facts it contains in respect to other statements.

If you remove the word "exact" from the second statment, the phrase "the same program" is mostly true (Truth-O-Meter).

His (fightr65) choice of words made it false but the concept of both programs is mostly the same.

The objectives were mostly the same.

While there were some similarities between the 2 programs, there were also major differences which you have conveniently failed to acknowledge.

The number of guns involved in Operation Wide Receiver was about 200 or 300 guns. There was an attempt to track these guns by placing tracking devices in these guns. Unfortunately, these tracking devices had a high rate of failure and were not effective. Also, the Mexican government was aware of this program and was involved in the tracking of these guns. Operation Wide Receiver was stopped by the Bush administration after it became apparent that the efforts to track these guns were not widely successful. Also, most of these guns were recovered.

Under Fast and Furious, there apparently was no attempt to track any of these guns. The number of untracked and unrecovered guns is thought to be in the thousands. I have heard estimates of any where between 2000 to 4000 guns. Also, the Mexican government was not notified about Fast and Furious. 2 Federal US LE officials were murdered by these Fast and Furious guns that were recovered at the scene of these murders. So there were major differences between these 2 programs.

So why would the Obama administration start up another gun walking program, when they knew that the last gun walking program under the previous adminstration was not successful? And when the failed Fast and Furious program was exposed in the mostly conservative media (with the exception of Cheryl Atkinson of CBS), why did the Obama administration lie about it being a program that was started under the Bush administration? And why does Obama hide behind "executive priviledge" in his refusal to turn over documents to the congressional committees?

[CuteOldGuy]

Dammit, NiceGuy! You quoted facts to MunchOnMen! He doesn't like that, so be careful!

[Munchmasterman]

Originally Posted by NiceGuy53

While there were some similarities between the 2 programs, there were also major differences which you have conveniently failed to mention.

The number of guns involved in Operation Wide Receiver was about 200 or 300 guns. There was an attempt to track these guns by placing tracking devices in these guns. Unfortunately, these tracking devices had a high rate of failure and were not effective. Also, the Mexican government was aware of this program and was involved in the tracking of these guns. Operation Wide Receiver was stopped by the Bush administration after it became apparent that the efforts to track these guns were not widely successful. Also, most of these guns were recovered.

Under Fast and Furious, there apparently was no attempt to track any of these guns. The number of untracked and unrecovered guns is thought to be in the thousands. I have heard estimates of any where between 2000 to 4000 guns. Also, the Mexican government was not notified about Fast and Furious. 2 Federal US LE officials were murdered by these Fast and Furious guns that were recovered at the scene of these murders. So there were major differences between these 2 programs.

So why would the Obama administration start up another gun walking program, when they knew that the last gun walking program under the previous adminstration was not successful? And when the failed Fast and Furious program was exposed in the mostly conservative media (with the exception of Cheryl Atkinson of CBS), why did the Obama administration lie about it being a program that was started under the Bush administration? And why does Obama hide behind "executive priviledge" in his refusal to turn over documents to the congressional committees? What are you asking me for? I already said it was a bad program. Maybe you should direct your questions to the people who can answer them. Unless of course you think you already know the answers. Are you afraid they might have reasons you haven't thought of or that believing them would upset your own preconceived notion of things?

You were correct in the first of your posts I addressed and wrong in this last one.


There were no major differences posted by you to acknowledge or ignore, conveniently or otherwise.

Do I need to "spell out" my response for you to understand it?

In case you forgot, my post was;

So while the programs were not identical, they were similar in scope and had similar problems.

Both programs were poorly conceived and executed.

Both programs posed risks to public safety.


It's obvious that you can't handle the word "both".

So far you're batting .500.


Not bad for baseball, not good for debate.

[CuteOldGuy]

See what I mean, NiceGuy? MunchOnMen will double down on his ignorance when it is exposed. That's one of the things that makes this place so funny!

[NiceGuy53]

Yes, I see what you mean COG. Typical know it all libtard response.

[NiceGuy53]

Originally Posted by Munchmasterman

You were correct in the first of your posts I addressed and wrong in this last one.


There were no major differences posted by you to acknowledge or ignore, conveniently or otherwise.

Do I need to "spell out" my response for you to understand it?

In case you forgot, my post was;

So while the programs were not identical, they were similar in scope and had similar problems.

Both programs were poorly conceived and executed.

Both programs posed risks to public safety.


It's obvious that you can't handle the word "both".

So far you're batting .500.


Not bad for baseball, not good for debate.

It seems you have problems keeping up with your own posts. I was responding to your last post, post#50. The one about if you remove the word "exact", the phrase "the same program" is mostly true. Well, I just pointed out to you what the major differences in the 2 programs were. But I guess you can not comprehend that. LMAO! Also, how can you say that the objectives were mostly the same, when there was no attempt to track these guns under Fast and Furious? FYI, I mostly agreed with your other previous post, post#48.

[flghtr65]

Originally Posted by NiceGuy53

No, nice try but not accurate. The link that IBH provided said the 2 programs "had some similarities". That is a far cry from "the exact same program" which you claimed this link said. When you accuse others of skipping over parts of this link, you should make sure you, yourself are not guilty of the same thing. As a matter of fact, you went much further than this. You mischaracterized what was actually said in this link to try to suit your own agenda. This link concludes that "Operation Wide Receiver is not the same thing as the Fast and Furious Program. We rate Obama's statement (and yours, I might add) False".

NG53, they are both gun running programs, the execution was different. Operation Wide receiver had less guns and a tracking device that did not work. IBH failed to mention that Bush had a gun running program at all in his post. Did he fail to mention that because it did not help his agenda? Bush raised the debt ceiling 8 times. Was this different also?

[CuteOldGuy]

Atta boy, Fluffy65! If Bush did it, it's ok if Obama does it! Obamanism gone wild!

[flghtr65]

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

Atta boy, Fluffy65! If Bush did it, it's ok if Obama does it! Obamanism gone wild!

If you want to be critical of the gun running programs, then be critical of Bush and Obama not just Obama. Your guy Ron Paul got a grand total of 66 delegates and will never be President.

If your city is destroyed by a tornado, don't look to FEMA for help, just fend for yourself like we did in the 1940's. Ron Paul - March 2012.