Capitalism: A Love Story!

[shanm]

Originally Posted by WombRaider

Also, it's 'collEge' not collage.

Maybe he is talking about Professors in the art of collage making?

[Budman]

Originally Posted by WombRaider

So you see nothing wrong, at all? I'm the coward? You're the one who wants to keep the status quo. There's no honor or bravery involved in swimming WITH the current. And as you all do, you've exaggerated to the point of absurdity, not recognizing how weak that makes your argument look. Your only hope of success is to reduce my argument to some absurd example in order to make yours look better by comparison. I never said I wanted to pay janitors $100k a year, but the only way you win is to use some ridiculous argument like that. You don't think teachers deserve better pay? They build the foundation of this country through our kids, but their pay doesn't reflect their importance.

You are the one that stated how unfair the system is. You are the one that has done nothing but crawfish around answering the question of what would be fair. Fair has nothing to do with it. It's not your fucking money. Jesus fucking Christ dude. Can you not get it. Spend your money any goddamn way you want but keep your fucking hands off my wallet.

I win the argument because you can't defend your position. All you have said is it is unfair. Fuck you. Get a fucking job.

[Budman]

Originally Posted by dirty dog

So what does how much a teacher make have to do with how much a CEO makes. If I didn't know better your comment seems like a deflection. Everyone thinks that teachers are underpaid, (except most collage professors) but teachers are not corperations and therefore do not have a CEO so I am confused as to what one has to do with the other. So let me ask again, how much should a CEO make.

Originally Posted by WombRaider

Your ignorance is evident in thinking that the number is the entire story. What good would nailing down an exact number do? It's a systemic failure. As a country, we do a shitty job of investing in our kids. Also, it's 'collEge' not collage. I should know. I graduated from one.

I don't necessarily think teachers are under paid. Pay is based on several factors. The first is the skill set you bring to the table. The second is the number of people available who have the same skill set. Take a professional football player. There are a very limited number of people who can do what they do. Therefore they can demand a greater salary because there is not a replacement waiting outside. Teachers are available in abundance. They know what the job pays long before being certified to teach. Now you want to whine about the pay. Cry somewhere else. Teacher also have benefits that most jobs don't offer. They get a shit load of time off. Many work other jobs during this time so their income is not nearly as low as you would have us believe.

As far as how much money we invest in our education system. You must be kidding. The money invested is not the problem. The problem is the waste and lack of accountability in our education system.

[WombRaider]

Originally Posted by Budman

You are the one that stated how unfair the system is. You are the one that has done nothing but crawfish around answering the question of what would be fair. Fair has nothing to do with it. It's not your fucking money. Jesus fucking Christ dude. Can you not get it. Spend your money any goddamn way you want but keep your fucking hands off my wallet.

I win the argument because you can't defend your position. All you have said is it is unfair. Fuck you. Get a fucking job.

If you think there's no problem, you're too dumb to waste time arguing with about it. Your mind is closed off to anything resembling change. And I have a job, but thanks.

[Budman]

Originally Posted by WombRaider

If you think there's no problem, you're too dumb to waste time arguing with about it. Your mind is closed off to anything resembling change. And I have a job, but thanks.

If you ever come up with a way to defend your position let me know. We can continue this discussion. But if all you have is "it's not fair" then you are a waste of time.

[WombRaider]

Originally Posted by Budman

I don't necessarily think teachers are under paid. Pay is based on several factors. The first is the skill set you bring to the table. The second is the number of people available who have the same skill set. Take a professional football player. There are a very limited number of people who can do what they do. Therefore they can demand a greater salary because there is not a replacement waiting outside. Teachers are available in abundance. They know what the job pays long before being certified to teach. Now you want to whine about the pay. Cry somewhere else. Teacher also have benefits that most jobs don't offer. They get a shit load of time off. Many work other jobs during this time so their income is not nearly as low as you would have us believe.

As far as how much money we invest in our education system. You must be kidding. The money invested is not the problem. The problem is the waste and lack of accountability in our education system.

Your comparison is apples and oranges. And it's bullshit, but we'll get to that. Teachers are not available in abundance, firstly. Many school districts struggle to keep qualified teachers. Teachers make less at just about every stage of their career compared to other professional fields requiring similar education and levels of responsibility. I wonder if you have kids. I guess you're ok with substandard schools. They don't get a shit load of time off either. Many DO NOT work second jobs. They do however have to complete renewal certification, take furthering education classes, etc. You don't have the first clue. Professional players of any sport contribute nothing to society on the level of a teacher. To even use it for a comparison is laughable and illustrates who you are and what's important to you.

When kids lack books and supplies, that's not waste or accountability. That's a lack of money.

[WombRaider]

Originally Posted by Budman

If you ever come up with a way to defend your position let me know. We can continue this discussion. But if all you have is "it's not fair" then you are a waste of time.

Maybe 1/12. A ceo cannot earn more in a month than their lowest-paid worker earns in a year.

[Budman]

Originally Posted by WombRaider

Maybe 1/12. A ceo cannot earn more in a month than their lowest-paid worker earns in a year.

Finally you come up with a number.
Let's run the numbers: $7.25 x 40= $290 x 52= $15,080 x 12= $180,960

You can't be serious. That is the dumbest thing I think anybody has ever posted. Fuck I make more than that and I only have 13 employees.

How do you propose this to be regulated? A new federal law? Voluntary cooperation?

Jesus, you are dumber than I thought and that is saying something. Good luck, you're gonna need it.

[SeekingTruth]

Originally Posted by Budman

The market does decide. It doesn't have anything to do with fair or unfair. Liberals always want to tell others how to spend their money. The salary of a CEO is whatever the board or company decide he is worth. Their decision has many parts to it. All employees, including the CEO, are there to make the company money. If the CEO gets paid 500 times what the lowest paid employee makes but grows the company and makes the company money then he is worth it. Most low paying jobs have a cap to what that position pays. Period. The market decides what that rate is. Trying to tie the salary of others to what a low paying position pays is ridiculous.

I have to agree that CEO's are trying to grow profit for their company, without any consideration for the employees of that company. A very selfish venture indeed and totally uncompassionate to the rest of society. Another problem I have seen is that multi-national corporations are always buying out the little guy, and this in turn makes them able to control prices on certain products. The consumer and most of society always pays, in lower wages, maltreatment by employers, and unfair practices. I believe that more and more of the 99 percent are opening their eyes now. Even young students are infuriated by their own student loan debt, which profit big banks. I remember growing up in California when they had tuition free college at community local colleges. All you had to pay for was your books. Total turnaround from what was democracy at one time. We now have a corporate facism government.

[WombRaider]

Originally Posted by Budman

Finally you come up with a number.
Let's run the numbers: $7.25 x 40= $290 x 52= $15,080 x 12= $180,960

You can't be serious. That is the dumbest thing I think anybody has ever posted. Fuck I make more than that and I only have 13 employees.

How do you propose this to be regulated? A new federal law? Voluntary cooperation?

Jesus, you are dumber than I thought and that is saying something. Good luck, you're gonna need it.

You asked for a number. I gave you one. I tried to explain to you that this was a philosophical argument, but you persisted in making it into something else you feel more comfortable talking about. So what you're now admitting is that you can't live on for a month, what your employee makes in a year? And based on your previous posts, you don't really give a fuck about that.

[dirty dog]

Originally Posted by WombRaider

Your ignorance is evident in thinking that the number is the entire story. What good would nailing down an exact number do? It's a systemic failure. As a country, we do a shitty job of investing in our kids. Also, it's 'collEge' not collage. I should know. I graduated from one.

So we jump from CEO's making 300% more than their lowest paid employee to the education that the kids are getting. All while still not getting an answer as to what you think is a proper pay rate. The best I get from you is some crack about a typo, I guess I shouldn't have expected more.

[WombRaider]

Originally Posted by dirty dog

So we jump from CEO's making 300% more than their lowest paid employee to the education that the kids are getting. All while still not getting an answer as to what you think is a proper pay rate. The best I get from you is some crack about a typo, I guess I shouldn't have expected more.

I guess posts #52 and #53 didn't register?

[Budman]

Originally Posted by WombRaider

You asked for a number. I gave you one. I tried to explain to you that this was a philosophical argument, but you persisted in making it into something else you feel more comfortable talking about. So what you're now admitting is that you can't live on for a month, what your employee makes in a year? And based on your previous posts, you don't really give a fuck about that.

You’re amazing. You keep hiding behind the “philosophical” argument. We both know that was never your intent. You are all about the redistribution of wealth that runs rampant in the liberal mindset. I never said what I pay my employees so you are barking up the wrong tree with that statement. Every one of my employees likes their job and likes working for me. I have zero turnover.


You put out a number that is so fucking stupid I’m actually surprised you hit the submit button. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that you just pulled that out of your ass and never actually ran the numbers. Minimum wage is not and never was meant to be the income necessary to live a comfortable lifestyle. It is an entry level wage to get you started in the workforce. You need to work hard and expand your skills so you become more valuable to the company. The company does not owe you a job. You must be bringing a service to the company and making them money or you will be down the road. The wage for any position is set by the market. I owned a construction company for many years so I will use this as my example. If the market determines the wage for a carpenter is $10 PH then I need to pay my carpenters something in that range. I won’t be able to fill the position if I am only offering $8 PH. Conversely I cannot pay $20 PH and expect to be competitive on bids. If the economy is booming and jobs are plentiful then the wages tend to go up. Supply and demand at work. Wages go up across the board and bids go up accordingly. When the economy slows then wages tend to back up a little because companies are getting leaner and lowering their bids to get the little work that is available. Wages are not determined by fairness. They are determined by the market. As far as CEO pay goes you seem to blame the CEO. He or she is just like anyone else applying for a job. They submit their resume’ and the company offers them a salary. If a company offers $5 million a year do you honestly expect the applicant to say “I can’t accept that much money. It’s not fair”? We all work for money. If you are not making what you want to make then you need to expand your skillset. Is that difficult? You’re goddamn right it is. The problem with so many people today is they want to be a victim. It is so much easier to whine about your situation and get sympathy than to actually work your ass off to improve your situation. We are nearing the point in this country where the “victims” will outnumber the contributors. At some point you run out of other people’s money. Improve your own situation and quit looking to government to be your daddy.

[WombRaider]

Originally Posted by Budman

You’re amazing. You keep hiding behind the “philosophical” argument. We both know that was never your intent. You are all about the redistribution of wealth that runs rampant in the liberal mindset. I never said what I pay my employees so you are barking up the wrong tree with that statement. Every one of my employees likes their job and likes working for me. I have zero turnover.


You put out a number that is so fucking stupid I’m actually surprised you hit the submit button. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that you just pulled that out of your ass and never actually ran the numbers. Minimum wage is not and never was meant to be the income necessary to live a comfortable lifestyle. It is an entry level wage to get you started in the workforce. You need to work hard and expand your skills so you become more valuable to the company. The company does not owe you a job. You must be bringing a service to the company and making them money or you will be down the road. The wage for any position is set by the market. I owned a construction company for many years so I will use this as my example. If the market determines the wage for a carpenter is $10 PH then I need to pay my carpenters something in that range. I won’t be able to fill the position if I am only offering $8 PH. Conversely I cannot pay $20 PH and expect to be competitive on bids. If the economy is booming and jobs are plentiful then the wages tend to go up. Supply and demand at work. Wages go up across the board and bids go up accordingly. When the economy slows then wages tend to back up a little because companies are getting leaner and lowering their bids to get the little work that is available. Wages are not determined by fairness. They are determined by the market. As far as CEO pay goes you seem to blame the CEO. He or she is just like anyone else applying for a job. They submit their resume’ and the company offers them a salary. If a company offers $5 million a year do you honestly expect the applicant to say “I can’t accept that much money. It’s not fair”? We all work for money. If you are not making what you want to make then you need to expand your skillset. Is that difficult? You’re goddamn right it is. The problem with so many people today is they want to be a victim. It is so much easier to whine about your situation and get sympathy than to actually work your ass off to improve your situation. We are nearing the point in this country where the “victims” will outnumber the contributors. At some point you run out of other people’s money. Improve your own situation and quit looking to government to be your daddy.

I believe I mentioned it being a philosophical argument very early on. And why is that a discussion not worth having in your opinion? You've trotted out your talking points; redistribution of wealth, etc., which I never mentioned. Bridging the income divide is not redistribution. I'm also not sure why you keep bringing up minimum wage. What percentage of employees at a company that has a ceo, actually make minimum wage? I wonder why you're making this personal. I have a job. I learned early on to work smarter, not harder, and it's paid off quite well. You're under the mistaken impression that sweat equity equals money and technology killed that little maxim a long time ago. Your mistake is in being a slave to the market and believing it's always right. Life isn't fair. Does that mean we should just give up on trying to make it so?

Here's a few articles for you. Seems those CEOs aren't worth it after all.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/susanada...ew-study-says/

And here's a ceo who said, yes, that's too much money and lowered his salary

http://thebillfold.com/2015/04/ceo-l...ries-to-70000/

And the number I put out, that was the number that Switzerland came up with to cap ceo pay. Wasn't just a number I pulled out of my ass.

And here's another CEO who took less money, and not some fly-by-night company either, but Costco. So you're wrong to assume that everyone thinks as you do. Your mistake is in assuming the market is always right. Sometimes it's obscene and downright immoral. He said, you know what, enough is enough. You also foster teamwork within a company by doing something like this.

"Last year, Costco Wholesale (COST) CEO Jim Sinegal made $3.2 million, including a $350,000 salary, an $80,000 bonus, and stock grants and options valued at $2.6 million. While hardly chump change, that was far less than what his peers raked in—and far less than what Costco's compensation committee wanted to give him. But the panel said in a regulatory filing that it was willing to respect his "wishes to receive modest compensation, in part because it believes that higher amounts would not change Mr. Sinegal's motivation and performance."

[Budman]

Originally Posted by WombRaider

I believe I mentioned it being a philosophical argument very early on. And why is that a discussion not worth having in your opinion? You've trotted out your talking points; redistribution of wealth, etc., which I never mentioned. Bridging the income divide is not redistribution. I'm also not sure why you keep bringing up minimum wage. What percentage of employees at a company that has a ceo, actually make minimum wage? I wonder why you're making this personal. I have a job. I learned early on to work smarter, not harder, and it's paid off quite well. You're under the mistaken impression that sweat equity equals money and technology killed that little maxim a long time ago. Your mistake is in being a slave to the market and believing it's always right. Life isn't fair. Does that mean we should just give up on trying to make it so?

Here's a few articles for you. Seems those CEOs aren't worth it after all.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/susanada...ew-study-says/

And here's a ceo who said, yes, that's too much money and lowered his salary

http://thebillfold.com/2015/04/ceo-l...ries-to-70000/

And the number I put out, that was the number that Switzerland came up with to cap ceo pay. Wasn't just a number I pulled out of my ass.

And here's another CEO who took less money, and not some fly-by-night company either, but Costco. So you're wrong to assume that everyone thinks as you do. Your mistake is in assuming the market is always right. Sometimes it's obscene and downright immoral. He said, you know what, enough is enough. You also foster teamwork within a company by doing something like this.

"Last year, Costco Wholesale (COST) CEO Jim Sinegal made $3.2 million, including a $350,000 salary, an $80,000 bonus, and stock grants and options valued at $2.6 million. While hardly chump change, that was far less than what his peers raked in—and far less than what Costco's compensation committee wanted to give him. But the panel said in a regulatory filing that it was willing to respect his "wishes to receive modest compensation, in part because it believes that higher amounts would not change Mr. Sinegal's motivation and performance."

You only trotted out the philosophical argument after being asked numerous times to tell us what is fair. It was your only out. As for the minimum wage thing what wage do you want to use. $10 PH? If that's the case a CEO can only make $250,000. I never said that CEO's are worth what they get. Some are some are not. That's has never been the point. Fuck there are plenty of employees that aren't minimum wage. Chances are if you are not worth your salary then you will be unemployed.

If a CEO wishes to take less salary then I have absolutely no problem with it as long as it is purely voluntary. The minute the government steps in and tries to regulate salary then they are fucking up the market.

I have not had the time to read the articles you linked to but I will this weekend. Good luck and have a great weekend.