Young Adults In The Work Place

[gnadfly]

Originally Posted by OliviaHoward

Absolutely! Some - read most - of the Europeans I’ve worked with complained about the demands the American divisions were placing on them to produce. They are very much in at 9:00 and are a 5:01 society. Further, when transferred to the States where they had to conform, they inevitability complained not just about being expected to conform to the work ethic, but about America in general.



The current crop of children and young adults grew up as children of the Me Generation. And they actually believe that equal opportunity equates to equal outcome. Well it doesn’t. No matter what they learned in no-score-keeping soccer.

The European GMs come here on a Wed or Thu, take their F2F meeting the next day and then go shopping thru the weekend. The American GMs who go to EU are expected to fly in Sun and leave as soon as business is completed.

I coached youth soccer for 5 years, its not the no-score-keeping soccer. Well, at the least the boys have it figured out. Its the cable TV. Nick, Disney, Cartoon Network, MTV, etc all show kids behaving badly but neither suffering the consequences of their acts or being rewarded for it. The amount of time kids spend in front of TV gives them a warped view of reality.

Lemme put on my flame suit. Posters here must not spend a lot of time with first, second or third generation Vietnamese Americans. They are polite, hard working, intelligent and bring a win as a group mentality to the workplace. Yes, they tell me they get up when the elders enter the room. One even told me they are required to turn photographs of deceased relatives around when they turn on the TV. Of course there are exceptions and I'm dealing with the college educated.

Originally Posted by atlcomedy

The Europeans that come here as ex-pats sponsored by their employer may complain privately but quickly adapt. Then again most of them are seen as "high potential" employees that are more concerned with career advancement.

Conversely US-based expats going to Europe will confide that it was like a vacation: they got U.S. pay + a cost of living adjustment + a bunch other bennies + all vacation/quality of life bennies of the country they were stationed

arrogant Americans - may take is ex-pats of all nationalities often come across arrogant. I attribute it to two things: 1) some people are just assholes & 2) (most common) they are good people but have been coached that they need to demonstrate confidencce & competence to be effective and due to cultural differences come across as arrogant

the 2nd bolded statement - about the health care system & not have to work much...if that is a widely held sentiment I say GREAT! I'm not sure if it is accurate or not, but I'm not sure we want them here if they won't want to work hard.

Most of the Europeans who have come over to the US for my company can't wait to leave. They simply can't stand the workplace demands and you are correct in that these are the 'high fliers.' One mid-upper level guy showed up the first month, figured he couldn't cut it and was basically allowed to hide until his 6 mos stint was over.

Our EU employees carry secondary health insurance even though they supposedly have 'great' socialize healthcare.

[Camille]

Having worked extensively on both continents there are several things that take some adjusting to.

By far the biggest difference in the US is the need to micro-manage entry level undergrads. It blew my mind when I saw this in action. These 20 something year olds are literally led around by the nose and micro-managed to the hilt. In England and Germany and France (Nina, not sure how this works elsewhere?) when you enter the corporate world you are expected to hit the ground running. There is no micro managing just a hell of a lot of autonomy and you will sink or swim in a relatively short space of time. The first year out of undergrad is one of the most demanding years of a European's career...in terms of learning to take responsibility for large projects/tasks at a very early stage.

I found it incredibly difficult working with such constraints in the US. Even with a 8 year plus background in my field with plenty of achievements and a strong track record, I was micro managed until my head spun when got my first job after completing my masters. It's just the way it is done here. It was too much for me so I work independently now after a year of that and it works well for me. I set my own pace and and manage myself. I know I'm ahead of where I would have been had I stayed put...my former VP told me that.

Vacation and salary...it's all relative.
As Nina said, in Europe we work to live generally...here people live to work. The difference shows in the differing perceptions of quality of life. Generally in Europe, people prefer to take a lower salary which they offset against other benefits...the reverse is true in America. It doesn't mean Europeans are lazy it means they are taking their salary in less tangible/liquid forms....such as working shorter work days. I for one, would not give up my 4 weeks vacation a year for a higher salary and I negotiated that easily with the American multi-national I worked for. They had no problem with it. Other Europeans negotiated lower salaries for full health care coverage etc. Putting health high up on the agenda is not lazy...the US pays a shitload more out in stress related illness and "burnout" than most other European countries. Just because someone is not purely motivated by money does not mean they are lazy. It does seem to mean they have a longer life expectancy though...as Europeans live longer than their US counterparts...and I'm up for some of that thanks very much!

What I do like about the US is that, as Nina said, it is much easier to be your own boss here. Too long and complicated to get into the "whys" but it just is. So for me, I prefer the mixture of both. Adoping either continents aproach as a whole would suffocate me...mix and match and make your own pathway...or choose the best fit.

C

[Guest053011]

Originally Posted by Camille

Having worked extensively on both continents there are several things that take some adjusting to.

By far the biggest difference in the US is the need to micro-manage entry level undergrads. It blew my mind when I saw this in action. These 20 something year olds are literally led around by the nose and micro-managed to the hilt. In England and Germany and France (Nina, not sure how this works elsewhere?) when you enter the corporate world you are expected to hit the ground running. There is no micro managing just a hell of a lot of autonomy and you will sink or swim in a relatively short space of time. The first year out of undergrad is one of the most demanding years of a European's career...in terms of learning to take responsibility for large projects/tasks at a very early stage.

I found it incredibly difficult working with such constraints in the US. Even with a 8 year plus background in my field with plenty of achievements and a strong track record, I was micro managed until my head spun when got my first job after completing my masters. It's just the way it is done here. It was too much for me so I work independently now after a year of that and it works well for me. I set my own pace and and manage myself. I know I'm ahead of where I would have been had I stayed put...my former VP told me that.

Vacation and salary...it's all relative.
As Nina said, in Europe we work to live generally...here people live to work. The difference shows in the differing perceptions of quality of life. Generally in Europe, people prefer to take a lower salary which they offset against other benefits...the reverse is true in America. It doesn't mean Europeans are lazy it means they are taking their salary in less tangible/liquid forms....such as working shorter work days. I for one, would not give up my 4 weeks vacation a year for a higher salary and I negotiated that easily with the American multi-national I worked for. They had no problem with it. Other Europeans negotiated lower salaries for full health care coverage etc. Putting health high up on the agenda is not lazy...the US pays a shitload more out in stress related illness and "burnout" than most other European countries. Just because someone is not purely motivated by money does not mean they are lazy. It does seem to mean they have a longer life expectancy though...as Europeans live longer than their US counterparts...and I'm up for some of that thanks very much!

What I do like about the US is that, as Nina said, it is much easier to be your own boss here. Too long and complicated to get into the "whys" but it just is. So for me, I prefer the mixture of both. Adoping either continents aproach as a whole would suffocate me...mix and match and make your own pathway...or choose the best fit.

C

Excellent read, thank you so much for posting. My father went to daring lengths and made many difficult sacrifices to bring the family to Canada. He says much the same you do, people at home work so they can enjoy life. Here they just work, and life passes them by.

My fondness for the arts allows me to combine my work and life into one, similar to the way being a provider is almost seamlessly melded into my life. It's a great joy, but I can't imagine doing it outside the arts.

[NinaBrooke]

Originally Posted by Camille

Having worked extensively on both continents there are several things that take some adjusting to.

By far the biggest difference in the US is the need to micro-manage entry level undergrads. It blew my mind when I saw this in action. These 20 something year olds are literally led around by the nose and micro-managed to the hilt. In England and Germany and France (Nina, not sure how this works elsewhere?) when you enter the corporate world you are expected to hit the ground running. There is no micro managing just a hell of a lot of autonomy and you will sink or swim in a relatively short space of time. The first year out of undergrad is one of the most demanding years of a European's career...in terms of learning to take responsibility for large projects/tasks at a very early stage.

I found it incredibly difficult working with such constraints in the US. Even with a 8 year plus background in my field with plenty of achievements and a strong track record, I was micro managed until my head spun when got my first job after completing my masters. It's just the way it is done here. It was too much for me so I work independently now after a year of that and it works well for me. I set my own pace and and manage myself. I know I'm ahead of where I would have been had I stayed put...my former VP told me that.

Vacation and salary...it's all relative.
As Nina said, in Europe we work to live generally...here people live to work. The difference shows in the differing perceptions of quality of life. Generally in Europe, people prefer to take a lower salary which they offset against other benefits...the reverse is true in America. It doesn't mean Europeans are lazy it means they are taking their salary in less tangible/liquid forms....such as working shorter work days. I for one, would not give up my 4 weeks vacation a year for a higher salary and I negotiated that easily with the American multi-national I worked for. They had no problem with it. Other Europeans negotiated lower salaries for full health care coverage etc. Putting health high up on the agenda is not lazy...the US pays a shitload more out in stress related illness and "burnout" than most other European countries. Just because someone is not purely motivated by money does not mean they are lazy. It does seem to mean they have a longer life expectancy though...as Europeans live longer than their US counterparts...and I'm up for some of that thanks very much!

What I do like about the US is that, as Nina said, it is much easier to be your own boss here. Too long and complicated to get into the "whys" but it just is. So for me, I prefer the mixture of both. Adoping either continents aproach as a whole would suffocate me...mix and match and make your own pathway...or choose the best fit.

C

Thanks for that thoughtful post, i could not agree more, Camille :-). I come to the USA because i prefer my independence and my career more than i do the securities. I just gain more to come to the USA, but then again i am independent but i will have to go thru some demands to get my education evaluated in the USA :-(. And maybe - most likely - even have to redo some courses. My massage education is not acknowledged here too, so i will have to redo some courses here as well. Its a drag, but worth it for leading the life i want. A kinky one :-). Even if the USA is one of the most conservative continents it is as well one of the most open-mionded as well and iw ill proudly participate in all subcultures that suit my mind :-).

(In fact i never could understand people that have all that possibilities in front of them - which i as a european crave for - and then hide behind a conservative fassade - many providers do that as well. )

[NinaBrooke]

Originally Posted by Lauren Summerhill

Excellent read, thank you so much for posting. My father went to daring lengths and made many difficult sacrifices to bring the family to Canada.

Lauren, this is by far the most of the things i experienced w ith my american friends too. I assume you are also waht is called "first generation" ? I have many first generation americans as friends whose parents worked their ass off so they can have a great life. None of them is lazy nor arrogant. Plus they blend in the finest qualities of americans and europeans.

The europeans that i know on working visum in the USA (most of them in the finances or in legal fields in Manhattan) work a splendid job and even get their greencards due to that job. That would not be the case if they did not do great or greatest jobs.

And there is anothe rjob category that is underestimated in the USA: Its what we in europe call "Lehre" (Camille help me out please - its jobs like coiffeur, carmechanic, something that requires specific skills but is not academic career).
In USA this market is lousy, because the education level that we have in europe is not there in the US-market. So, the carmechanics and hairdressers or cooks or whatever from europe get GC in a minute. SO to indian IT technicians :-).

[NinaBrooke]

Originally Posted by OliviaHoward

I don't want to get into a sarcastic oh ya, you're worse than we are argument. Let's just say I was an exec for a small division of a VERY large oil field services company. If you work for an American company, you should conform to the American business model / work ethic unless it is a collective agreement to convert to a 5:01 work ethic. Needless to say it wasn't. So, if you want to get the big pay of working for an American company, you take the good with the bad or go work somewhere else. It's the American way.

There is a basis in history for this hard work ethic; it is called the Protestant Work Ethic. Some call it the Puritan Work Ethic. This country was founded by Puritans, and their philosophy is that through hard work you can achieve your personal salvation. Agree with it or don't agree with it it is still an historical fact.

Secondly, I absolutely HATE it when people from other countries come over here to make more money, pay less in taxes and enjoy a dramatically reduced cost of living and then turn around and bitch. Go home. Earn your living in your own country, pay the non-American taxes and cost of living. Sorry, I have no patience or sympathy for those individuals.

I agree with you there. We have the same problem in western europe with eastern european workers. The problem is not the work ethics, but rather the price dumping. They can work for less because they dont need money in their own country.,

Although flexibility is also a demand and sometimes people can learn both ways. Sometimes people get hired and don`t know what to expect. Sometimes they aren`t the brightest bulbs and they would not have any chance to earn that kind of money in their own country for the same job. In europe even in the smallest of companies we have regular business meetings where everyone can adress their needs and has a say. In companies where this isn`t the case i never lasted long, i have to admit.

As to taxes. People who have GC or american work allowances have to pay taxes in USA too. Even Ex pats who live somewhere else WILL be taxed US-way IF they hold a citizenship and a GC. (I think it applies to permanent residents as well). SO there is no way to go around and fingerpaint if you are in the american market. They will even pay taxes to the USA when they work in europe. So its not true that they can cut low taxes. How would that be possible?

What you describe is what i currently do in switzerland (i don`t complain though). I work there and pay taxes only for austria. But that is swiss regulation not my problem. I have no interest working in austria, where the requirements for the same job are a pain in the ass and i would earn significantly less . But its all regulated and austrians get taxes so they can?`t complain.

[Guest050715-1]

Originally Posted by ninasastri

.................... My massage education is not acknowledged here too, so i will have to redo some courses here as well. ....................)

See, that to me is just ridiculous. Really? I could understand if it were law or highly location specific, but medical, dental, business, engineering, whatever? If you can pass the boards, then you can pass the boards. I’ve been treated abroad by foreign doctors from Canada, Mexico and France. There was not a lick of difference.

Originally Posted by Camille

......................Putting health high up on the agenda is not lazy...the US pays a shitload more out in stress related illness and "burnout" than most other European countries....................

I had such a high stress job that I was in the hospital at 34 years old thinking I was having a heart attack. Talk about a wake-up call.

Originally Posted by Camille

Having worked extensively on both continents there are several things that take some adjusting to.

By far the biggest difference in the US is the need to micro-manage entry level undergrads. It blew my mind when I saw this in action. These 20 something year olds are literally led around by the nose and micro-managed to the hilt. In England and Germany and France (Nina, not sure how this works elsewhere?) when you enter the corporate world you are expected to hit the ground running. There is no micro managing just a hell of a lot of autonomy and you will sink or swim in a relatively short space of time. The first year out of undergrad is one of the most demanding years of a European's career...in terms of learning to take responsibility for large projects/tasks at a very early stage.

I found it incredibly difficult working with such constraints in the US. Even with a 8 year plus background in my field with plenty of achievements and a strong track record, I was micro managed until my head spun when got my first job after completing my masters. It's just the way it is done here. It was too much for me so I work independently now after a year of that and it works well for me. I set my own pace and and manage myself. I know I'm ahead of where I would have been had I stayed put...my former VP told me that.......................

Micro-managing? Here? LOL One of the many, many reasons I work for myself. However, everyone I ever managed was independent and could produce on their own. If they had trouble working independently, but clearly tried, I moved them to a position that better suited them. Maybe instead of being a Production Planner they were moved to Buyer I or even to support if they just weren’t up to the demands. If they were lazy, well I documented it and then terminated them. That’s not so easy to do in other parts of the country or abroad.

One of the big problems in American corporate culture, unlike other places where entrepreneurship isn’t highly prized, isn’t necessarily the young, it is that our businesses are either big cap companies and over wrought with bureaucracy and fat or they are mid to small-cap and run way to lean. You have to have flexible systems in place to allow autonomy and unmanaged production. I think there are a lot more start-up type companies here than in other countries and that encourages more cowboy type cultures where people are either overrun and paralyzed or they flourish.

I still think, whether micro-managed or not, that the new crop goes into work thinking they are as important to their employer as they are to their parents or social network. They just aren’t. And it didn’t used to be that way either. Socrates was right RK, but he wasn’t dealing with the children of the Me Generation. If they can get the idea that they are new and they are ambitious, I have seen them go far. If not, then they really flounder. Regardless of the era, at the end of he day, 80% gets pulled along by the other 20%. It’s just how it is.

[Marcus Aurelius]

The following is not mine because it's before my time however it illustrates some of what corporate culture was like in the 60's and earlier.

At IBM The dress was suit, white shirt, tie, and polished shoes, sock garters. This was
reinforced by the apocryphal "Great Poughkeepsie Tie Controversy" as told to me
by my first line: it seems a recent new hire came to work without a tie. His
manager told him to go home and put one on. There ensued a back and forth
argument that went nowhere, at which point the employee went Open Door to his
Director. There, he inquired (somewhat arrogantly, it is told) as to why it was
necessary to wear a tie (particularly in a lab environment). The Director
replied: "There are 3 major reasons - 1)Customers are often shown through the
lab and it's important that their impression is one of conservative propriety;
2) Wearing a common uniform of sorts promotes teamwork and camaraderie so
important to producing quality products; and 3) You'll be fired if you don't put
one on!" He did.

A couple of years later, I witnessed a similar scene over a young secretary and
a mini-dress. She was sent home in tears to change clothes.

[Camille]

Hi ladies:

If I could figure out this multi quote process I'd use it lol.
I'm rubbish...so lady by lady...

Nina, I can't recall exactly what that category of visa is called but I know what you are referring to. It's for people who have had what might be considered vocational training for a job that doesn't necessarily require a degree...such as a plumber, hairdresser etc. Each year, The DOL re-evaluates this list and I believe (if it's still the same) the shortages in these vocational areas are put forth for visa opportuties. When I came here I think plumber was quite high on the list. So basically, a candidate without a degree but with extensive training and experience in plumbing could have come and worked here...as a plumber, nothing else. The restrictions are actually printed on your social security card so that employers know that the former INS are ONLY permitting you to work in that field. I think that's the category of workers you are talking about Nina?

Olivia...I'm stunned that you were in such a scary position at 34!! You must have been petrified!!! Good for you for taking the iniative and carving your own way. I do agree that you can't come here and expect to have it all (meaning the US pros of work and the European pros..or wherever you are from)...that's just greedy. That's why I negotiated a lower salary for more vacation...I didnt expect both and to be honest, I was trying to balance a commitment to both my job and family. It worked out ok because I took 2 weeks to go home at Christmas (my family are scattered so I move about a bit when home) and I was planning to take the other two weeks in summer. My mum got realy sick though so I took the other 2 weeks in Spring. It worked well because I didnt have the stress of coming back to thinking I'd jeopardized my job in its early stages by taking unallocated time off...which was a godsend at the time.
Olivia, I think you are right on the money in pointing out that "priorities" with younger workers are the/an issue...probably more so than taking responsibility...though I suppose the latter depends on one identifying the former. In college (and this is a global issue, not just US based by any means) you are responsible for yourself. You don't work daily as a team on a project, just occasionally if a class calls for it, so priorities are different. Having read the comments on here about texting etc I would agree that there seems to be a difficulty with shifting from "it's all about me" to "it's all about us." Most kids don't give too much thought to the transition that will occur from college to the workplace it's not something that college preps you for...or even really suggests you think about.

C

[Camille]

Originally Posted by Lauren Summerhill

Excellent read, thank you so much for posting. My father went to daring lengths and made many difficult sacrifices to bring the family to Canada. He says much the same you do, people at home work so they can enjoy life. Here they just work, and life passes them by.

My fondness for the arts allows me to combine my work and life into one, similar to the way being a provider is almost seamlessly melded into my life. It's a great joy, but I can't imagine doing it outside the arts.

One thing I will say about this Lauren is that there is more flexibility in the US to shift that focus. Here, people tend to run hard in the early years of their careers and they can slow down much earlier in life than European counterparts. In Europe, people do not retire as early as they do here...or even adjust their pace. It seems to be the reverse...they ramp up later in their career. We don't seem to have that flexibility in Europe but that's because we want to work to live right from day one. One of the reasons I moved here was to ramp up my career. It was moving too slowly for me in England. I was single, no kids and had the desire and energy to put more hours into work to move ahead. That wasn't happening in the UK lol. Before I started my masters, I worked for 2 years for an engineering company which pushed my career to a point that would have taken about 5 or 7 years to achieve in the UK. I knew what I would have to adjust to in that time period (less vacation etc) and went for it without complaint. The outcome was absolutely worth it. Both continents have very different ways of doing things and there is nothing wrong with shifting between the two if the benefits to both parties are worth it.

C x

[atlcomedy]

Originally Posted by Marcus Aurelius

A couple of years later, I witnessed a similar scene over a young secretary and
a mini-dress. She was sent home in tears to change clothes.

Dress is obviously getting more casual.

Formal dress is a turnoff for younger employees.

I was entering the workforce around the time organizations were moving to "business casual" (which I think is defined differently by every organization). It was interesting to watch the evolution particularly among the men that had been around 20 or so years. At first it was just take off the jacket and tie. After a couple of years the same guys were evolving into pretty snappy dressers with their own styles. I think it was a matter of them not knowing how to dress after years of blue suit, white shirt and the tie the kids got him for Father's Day on one hand and on the other simple economics: they didn't want to go out and immediately buy a new wardrobe.

For those of us that telecommute or get to work from a home office part of the time we get the best dress code: boxers & a t-shirt.

I do think there should be standards in a professional workplace. Attire shouldn't be distracting. BTW it isn't the hot new hire in the mini skirt that is the biggest problem (although still distracting), it is the 45 year old with a less flattering frame that shouldn't be wearing the mini skirt (just like at the pool, some people just shouldn't wear bikinis)

[Camille]

Originally Posted by Marcus Aurelius

The following is not mine because it's before my time however it illustrates some of what corporate culture was like in the 60's and earlier.

At IBM The dress was suit, white shirt, tie, and polished shoes, sock garters. This was
reinforced by the apocryphal "Great Poughkeepsie Tie Controversy" as told to me
by my first line: it seems a recent new hire came to work without a tie. His
manager told him to go home and put one on. There ensued a back and forth
argument that went nowhere, at which point the employee went Open Door to his
Director. There, he inquired (somewhat arrogantly, it is told) as to why it was
necessary to wear a tie (particularly in a lab environment). The Director
replied: "There are 3 major reasons - 1)Customers are often shown through the
lab and it's important that their impression is one of conservative propriety;
2) Wearing a common uniform of sorts promotes teamwork and camaraderie so
important to producing quality products; and 3) You'll be fired if you don't put
one on!" He did.

A couple of years later, I witnessed a similar scene over a young secretary and
a mini-dress. She was sent home in tears to change clothes.

That reminds me of something an old boss said to all new twenty something year olds when they started work with the company.
He said:

"If you can wear any of it on a Friday night, you cannot wear any of it on a Friday day."

They got it.

[Fastcars1966]

Wow graduating from college by age 15 and I thought my daughter was doing well to get through grad school by age 23.

Originally Posted by ninasastri

In europe people usually get started in their career path at about 15 years old. 20 seems a bit old :-)....Some of them are then already finished with their path :-) and have own companies :-)

[NinaBrooke]

Originally Posted by gnadfly

Our EU employees carry secondary health insurance even though they supposedly have 'great' socialize healthcare.

what do you mean by that? I have a second insurance that insures me worldwide that is not covered by regular insurance. Is taht similar?

[NinaBrooke]

Originally Posted by Camille

One of the reasons I moved here was to ramp up my career. It was moving too slowly for me in England. I was single, no kids and had the desire and energy to put more hours into work to move ahead. That wasn't happening in the UK lol. The outcome was absolutely worth it. Both continents have very different ways of doing things and there is nothing wrong with shifting between the two if the benefits to both parties are worth it.

C x

I agree. I myself am an artist too (i paint) but i would not dream of making money with that. There are already too many starving artists in NYC already.
Then i could stick right away in Europe :-).

But with my career as psychologist and therapy i will make my way in the USA. A friend of mine is already there (careerwise), so i know it works. She left Vienna a decade earlier then i did.