The Death of Modern Liberal Feminism (And its Rebirth in the Conservative Movement)

[NinaBrooke]

Originally Posted by Can I Play Too???

Nina, I greatly admire your honesty, ability to listen, and open-mindedness.


From a financial standpoint, in this US economic depression, more men than women were laid off. Although, women still only make 80% of what the men do.

Thanks CIT :-) , that is nice of you to say, i am curious about what you have to say as well.

As to women only making 80% of the money. I agree, but OTOH you have women getting taken care off by men or women screwing their way into - mediocre - business settings. No man can ever do that, and the likelihood of a woman financing a man during a whole life is irrational.

so it equals and IMHO women still have more choices than men. They can choose to be at home and take their - rich - men`s money ( I heard american date life is all about the money, that is at least a european streotypical prejudice - american women want men with money - generally speaking)
or they can earn their doctors degree themselves ...;-)
Its easier as a woman in these regards.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Go ahead and give women true equality. It would actually be a cut in pay.



[Insert sarcastic smiley here.]

[NinaBrooke]

Originally Posted by Marcus Aurelius

Go ahead and give women true equality. It would actually be a cut in pay.



[Insert sarcastic smiley here.]

hey when did you take a pic of me at work :-))) ???

[Marcus Aurelius]

I doubt that.
You have the look I'd wager but not the heart.

[pjorourke]

I don't know MA -- the guy does look a bit like Chuck,

[Marcus Aurelius]

Young Chuck perhaps.

[pjorourke]

Good point.

[Guest050715-1]

Originally Posted by ninasastri

Other than that i agree with you about the founding fathers. I am proud of what they did. Nowadays every twat runs around pretending to be a feminist and having no clue what she is talking about. I consider that respectless. That is one reason of self reflection w hy i would never dare to call myself a feminist. Without support of males i would not be where i am today. Pretending i "did it all by myself" is deluding myself.

I never mentioned anything about the founding fathers. They were more in tune with their feminine side than Atlla, whatever that says about them.

Nina, we are fortunate enough to be born at the right place at the right time in history. Were it not the fact that we are late 20th century / early 21st century men and women in the Western world where the middle class is large and there are opportunities to make it into the wealthier economic stratas than one was born to, we would very likely be born into non-landed poverty to some varying degree or another. Then as there is now, there is limited place setting at the wealthiest tables, and the chances of making it there then unless you were not of the manor born was nil.

The Enlightenment ultimately is what gave us all the idea that the individual really matters and that individuals – all people just not the wealthy – have rights. That’s where we can trace out thoughts of individualism, allowance for our eccentricities and, for some, their sense of superiority. Without it there would have been no thought given to breaking the mold, abandoning one’s homeland for individually held religious beliefs, establishing a wall-eyed, radical government let alone women’s rights.

Fast forward to the Modern Era, women are where they are because we forced the issue. Yes, men did have to ratify the amendment giving us the vote and they did bend to pressure, but I don’t see how you equate where you are today as a gift from males. Men are wonderful. I adore them. I prefer their company to women. I love having sex with them. I have earned my living in and among men all my life either through direct patronage or in my professional career in manufacturing and real estate dealings. But they didn’t get me to where I am today.

Originally Posted by ninasastri

It just happens that queer theories and such is my expertise or an area i am aware of as being a kinky polyamorist and living such a thing for everyone visible.

Queer theory is the natural advance of feminism or lets say gender studies. It criticises heteronormativity. Theoretically it can be that due to the fact that feminism as well as patriarchy hold the bias of putting gender and sex in a diametrally opposite box per definitionem, that they broaden the gap by pretending men and women are soooo different like venus and mars (hell there have been books out there) and it needs a hoard of therapists or other enlightened species who hold the secret thumbshake and the hidden wisdom to smaller that gap again by giving us lectures on how to talk when talk with a woman , etc. etc. etc.

This bias or artefact may be taking the focus of an individuals need as a person to the stereotype behind it (being a woman / vs being a man) and chalking up problems towards sex-charismatics rather than behaviour problems that can be cured or adapted.

Plus, queer theories say that not even genetically the binary "male vs. female" exists: there are transgender, transsexual, gay, hetero, bisexual and whatnot identified people. Pretending we are just two opposite ends at a binary system is very shortsighted.
That is why i said feminism is "outdated" as an intellectual value, there are better models of thought nowadays. But not when it comes to socioeconomic values.
Plus, women that suck cocks for getting business jobs while pretending to be capable in an area of expertise that others work hard for are in my opinion the REAL problem nowadays. and not intellectualising on problems of the concepts of feminism.

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about here. Perhaps you are confusing feminism with the sexual revolution. Queer theories, polyamorousness (sp), etc. have nothing to do with social, legal and financial equality and freedoms.

I do not consider men and women to be two ends of the spectrum, but rather two parts of the same. I can only assume you are and your theories distinguish between sex and gender differences. I would agree with that. Female by definition is the sex with the largest sex cell, and that really has no bearing on gender and matters between men and women other than reproduction. And if that’s the case: you are saying gender differences are more important to feminism than sex differences, I can see how that would have some impact on feminism and is germane, while at the same not negating reproduction and child rearing.

I absolutely do not agree with your queer theory. I called my daughter who has studied some of these topics and she also disagrees not just with you, but with her professors. Now, my daughter’s area of expertise isn’t abstract sexual identification, but merely geology, but I trust her scientific intuition. It has no bearing on feminism or the human condition in my opinion.

Originally Posted by ninasastri

Hi Olivia,
I think you misunderstood my criticism of feminist stereotyping genders into two binaries as seing feminism as out of date. I agree with you, that the real situation of women is still something to worry about, and i also agree or let consider the fact that most women are the enemies of other women (solve et coagula).

You have now really touched on something I agree with you about. In fact it’s become something of an anthem for me. Women will never be equal to men until men think of us as competitors. Aside from the upper echelons (see earlier discussions) of professional and business organizations, women are not really considered “competitors”. I believe it was Mazo that said strides or no, women aren’t treated fairly in the legal profession.

Now here’s my theory on why women aren’t considered true competitors by men. Women tear each other down. We fight amongst ourselves when there is nothing to fight over. While men are busy minding the pecking order and competing for position and real ground, we are busy nit-picking and bitching about who is out of dress code and who files better than someone else even at middle and upper-middle management positions. Why would men consider a group a threat that is engaging in a damaging but contained civil war? Answer: They don’t, and we just chase our own tails.

My theory is that competition about non-issues is behavior that has been engrained since the polygamist era thousands of years ago. Polygamy was a necessity for population growth, safety, wealth building, etc. My thought is this, when you have multiple wives competing for attention from their collective husband and resources for their personal offspring they are going to be competitive about what we could consider today non-issues. This is an evolutionary reflection of the competition among women for resources. It’s just my thought; I’ve not read it anywhere.

Originally Posted by ninasastri

What i see as out of date is not the political issue of gender equality, but rather defining sexes and gender as a binary constitution of opposites. This is a merely intellectual criticism, it does not void the reality of a life. I don`t think that someone that has studied necessarily understands more about feminism than others. I am not a judgemental person, besides if you study one thing you can still be a complete dumbass in another area.

A. Non-judgmental people don’t use the terms suck cock and twat.

B. Tell your “out of date theory” to the lower and middle class of women that haven’t realized political, social, and financial freedom. Just because the laws are on the books doesn't mean everyone is equal. Don’t forget, just because you and I have made it, not every one has. I believe it’s the US Marines that say, “Leave no man behind.”

And now, I really have to beg off the discussion completely. I’ve spent way too much time on explaining to you that theory doesn’t pay the bills and intellectual double talk doesn’t make you any sexier than your lovely pictures already make you.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Olivia.

You had me at, "Suck and twat."

[John Bull]

Oh come on! Women have all the power and always did have all the power except raw physical strength.
I'm for starting manism. Let's give the guys an even break. All pussies open to the cock! Hail the penis!
Everybody but you, Charles. You gave it up when you joined them. hehehe

[pjorourke]

Originally Posted by OliviaHoward

Women tear each other down. We fight amongst ourselves when there is nothing to fight over.

Gee where have we seen that recently?

[Guest050715-1]

Originally Posted by Marcus Aurelius

Olivia.

You had me at, "Suck and twat."

You sexy fucker

[Marcus Aurelius]

Originally Posted by OliviaHoward

You sexy fucker

HaHa WTF!

[Guest083011]

Originally Posted by OliviaHoward

You sexy fucker

You never called me that.

[Guest050715-1]

Originally Posted by SR Only

You never called me that.

I couldn't resist. I know I said I was going to beg off, but I can't stop it!!! I love to flirt. You sexy thang!