Grade inflation

[pjorourke]

Originally Posted by atlcomedy

Sadly not true. In fact for most schools the biggest bleeder is actually FB because of their 85 or so scholarships & large staff.

And because Title IX computes "equality" on a gross expense basis rather than net of revenues, it also raises the amount that the university must spend on women's sports -- thus "bleeding" dollars from education to sport.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by Rudyard K

Nah, I said it the way I said it...and he understood it pretty much the way I was saying it.

My bad. Sorry 'bout dat.


Let me add that you two make a really cute couple

[Rudyard K]

Originally Posted by China Doll

Going back to the scholarship issue, I think that the money is largely wasted on the kids with very poor grades. I know very well that survival comes before grades. I also understand that those kids should be given a chance. However, this is absolutely not the way to do it. I would not expect anyone who almost failed all of high school to flourish in college. The knowledge base just isn't there. I would be singing a different song if they put those kids through a transition program before throwing them into the college atmosphere. I know that this is only one person, but the girl I knew was almost illiterate. She did not belong there. At least not without some transitional learning to prepare her for it.

And such is the problem as we raise the decision process higher and higher up the chain. We need to be ceding control to the lowest level possible (i.e. school districts, schools, locals, etc.). And that means that each of those districts will be measured at the next level up based on the performance of its output. Colleges would then (if they were allowed to) look at a low performing school district’s students with a more jaundiced eye than a high performing school district’s students. The natural thought process would be that the low performing school district would raise it performance level at the behest of the local parents and community.

It is unfortunately the opinion of many “one plan for all” folks, that some groups of local parents or communities are unmotivated or incapable of raising that school district performance level. So, instead of offering resources to help the administrators raise that school districts performance (in spite of that perceived lack of motivation or capability) the wisdom of the “one plan for all” folks is to standardize tests and curriculum across all the land. In doing so, they must lower the level of those standardized tests and curriculum so that even the kids in the low performing districts can now perform well. But nature being what it is…we have now really just separated the students again, into those who take advanced placement courses, and those who don’t. And the curriculum in the advanced placement courses is much more flexible than the normal curriculum. I have a daughter that got her teaching degree & certificate, and wanted to teach elementary school. But once she found out that her day would be spent…not only teaching only certain things to a standardized program, but also a virtual script reading of what to say…she opted to go into the non-education work world. And she is doing well.

There are inequities in the world…and there always will be. But there are right ways to address inequities…in an attempt to close the gap…and there are wrong ways. My alma matter, over the course of the last decade, made a real commitment to diversity of the student body. But they decided they did not want to lower their admission standards to do so. Instead, they analyzed the facts, and determined that their acceptance levels of all students was actually quite diverse and “close to” in accordance with their population. Where they were failing was that the make-up of those who actually attended the school, was not as diverse as their “accepted to the school” subset. So, they implemented a program of recruiting those kids from the “not attending” districts and sought out to award scholarships more to that subset than others. Gradually it has made an impact. IMHO, that is a method of recognizing an inequity, and implementing a methodology of closing that gap, in a sound manner…and in accordance with the purpose of the institution. No standards were lowered. But extra focus was made on bringing underperforming subsets up to the standard.

[charlestudor2005]

First of all, this thread has morphed from grade inflation to scholarships and support of sports programs at the university level.

As far as scholarships are concerned, I do not believe in "sports" scholarships. There should be academic scholarships, period. If a talented athlete wants to compete in sports on the college/university level, s/he should try for academic scholarships. The purpose of college/university is learning, not sports. Sports is an extra-curricular activity.

Sure, at some schools it brings in a ton of money. And at some schools the sports program supports itself and other things. But that does not make it right. Mack Brown doubled his salary last year...now, he make $5 million a year. That is disgraceful. We should be rewarding excellence in education, not prowess in athletics.

If we did that, we would not graduate athletes that cannot read and write, much less do math. Now, if you really want to talk about grade inflation, let's talk about the colleges/universities that advance athletes through school, then graduate them when they cannot read, write or do math.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Originally Posted by Rudyard K

Uhh, it's due...not do.

All those smarts must have skipped a generation, huh?

Damn!

[OneHotMale]

Originally Posted by charlestudor2005

First of all, this thread has morphed from grade inflation to scholarships and support of sports programs at the university level.

As far as scholarships are concerned, I do not believe in "sports" scholarships. There should be academic scholarships, period. If a talented athlete wants to compete in sports on the college/university level, s/he should try for academic scholarships. The purpose of college/university is learning, not sports. Sports is an extra-curricular activity.

Sure, at some schools it brings in a ton of money. And at some schools the sports program supports itself and other things. But that does not make it right. Mack Brown doubled his salary last year...now, he make $5 million a year. That is disgraceful. We should be rewarding excellence in education, not prowess in athletics.

If we did that, we would not graduate athletes that cannot read and write, much less do math. Now, if you really want to talk about grade inflation, let's talk about the colleges/universities that advance athletes through school, then graduate them when they cannot read, write or do math.

Charles do you have any idea how much Mack Browns program brings into to UT? I will have to look it up but it is extremely well in excess of the salary that they are paying him. As has been mentioned before College football and basketball are huge $$$ making machines that fund most of the other sports as well as academics in some aspect. I do agree that the ones that do not have the ability to read or write should not just be given a free pass because of their athletic ability and be granted a diploma at the end of their quest to go pro in whatever sport they play. I myself went to college on a golf schloarship and while being pretty damn good at the game realized that I probably did not have the desire to continue in a professional career. I also have 2 daughters, one that went to college on an academic schloarship to a very prestigious university in Ca. and her sister who attended a Big 12 school on a sports schloarship. So yes there are kids out their that put their academic or athletic abilities to good use and are justly rewarded with a schloarship. BTW both graduated in 4 years or less and doing extremely well in their chosen professions.

[slackjawyokel]

Originally Posted by charlestudor2005

Sure, at some schools it brings in a ton of money. And at some schools the sports program supports itself and other things. But that does not make it right. Mack Brown doubled his salary last year...now, he make $5 million a year. That is disgraceful. We should be rewarding excellence in education, not prowess in athletics.

So a college football coach makes more $2,000,000 more than the combined salaries of the President, the Vice President, all nine Supreme Court Justices, and the Speaker of the House. Wow. Just wow...

Of course, he does have a 13-1 record last year...

How many China's could have become PHD's for that kind of money...

[atlcomedy]

[quote=npita;303317]

Then you should be happy that a standardized grading system would only make education worse. I used to be in academia and I taught at a university. Here is what I see:

Go reread the context of my post and the original question -- that is fixing grade inflation. I stated standardized testing would address the problem. I never said it was a good idea...but it would fix the problem.

Kind of like, "I got a weight loss plan for you: start smoking 2 packs a day, the pounds will come right off..." It was kind of tongue in cheek.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by slackjawyokel

How many China's could have become PHD's for that kind of money...

How many China PHD's would it take to bring in the money Mack Brown brought into UT's coffers? 100-200?.... and even then they would not bring back in their lifetime what Mack Brown brought back in a year.
[quote=atlcomedy;303974]

Originally Posted by npita

Kind of like, "I got a weight loss plan for you: start smoking 2 packs a day, the pounds will come right off..." It was kind of tongue in cheek.

Smoking will help you lose weight?

[Willen]

WTF

Are we prepared to stake the future of the country on a high performing football program vs. an education system that generates folks with the work ethic and advanced statitical knowledge essential to do the sort of analysis required in the investment world, to say nothing of developing the kinds of of informational analysis and technical innovation that will fuel prosperity and sustain national security over the coming decades?

Back in the '50s an incoming U of Oklahoma president commented that he hoped to make the university a place that the football team could be proud of. He was joking, but we may wonder who has the last laugh.

[charlestudor2005]

Originally Posted by OneHotMale

Charles do you have any idea how much Mack Browns program brings into to UT? I will have to look it up but it is extremely well in excess of the salary that they are paying him. As has been mentioned before College football and basketball are huge $$$ making machines that fund most of the other sports as well as academics in some aspect. I do agree that the ones that do not have the ability to read or write should not just be given a free pass because of their athletic ability and be granted a diploma at the end of their quest to go pro in whatever sport they play. I myself went to college on a golf schloarship and while being pretty damn good at the game realized that I probably did not have the desire to continue in a professional career. I also have 2 daughters, one that went to college on an academic schloarship to a very prestigious university in Ca. and her sister who attended a Big 12 school on a sports schloarship. So yes there are kids out their that put their academic or athletic abilities to good use and are justly rewarded with a schloarship. BTW both graduated in 4 years or less and doing extremely well in their chosen professions.

First of all, I think the points made earlier in the thread is that only SOME schools make $$$ off their sports programs. Probably the bowl schools every year. For the others it's a dark hole.

The point being, that UT & others of that ilk are the exception, not the rule.

I am still of the opinion that these are first and foremost, academic institutions. And that should be the primary goal with respect to all students. We shouldn't be giving certain students passing grades when they are really failing just because they win games. That teaches the wrong values to all the students.

I am against sports? No. I actually enjoy watching most sports, especially close games. But I am more in favor of promoting academics in our schools than sports. Mainly because when sports gets into the mix, the educational priorities get screwed up.

Just my .02.

[OneHotMale]

Originally Posted by charlestudor2005

First of all, I think the points made earlier in the thread is that only SOME schools make $$$ off their sports programs. Probably the bowl schools every year. For the others it's a dark hole.

The point being, that UT & others of that ilk are the exception, not the rule.

I am still of the opinion that these are first and foremost, academic institutions. And that should be the primary goal with respect to all students. We shouldn't be giving certain students passing grades when they are really failing just because they win games. That teaches the wrong values to all the students.

I am against sports? No. I actually enjoy watching most sports, especially close games. But I am more in favor of promoting academics in our schools than sports. Mainly because when sports gets into the mix, the educational priorities get screwed up.

Just my .02.

Charles I think that you will find that we are in total agreement that academics should be the primary focus of an institution of higher learning hence that is why they call them student athletes. Now in a perfect world they would all graduate in 4 years and then go on to whatever professional sport they are going to play. But we all know that this will never happen. I do agree that if the student can't cut the academic workload then they need to weed them out. But as long as they are able to take WTF's favourite course of underwater basketweaving and such it will never happen. But don't begrudge someone like Mack Brown for what kind of $$ that he is paid when his program is easily bringing in 20 times as much that go to fund other sports and academics.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by OneHotMale

.But don't begrudge someone like Mack Brown for what kind of $$ that he is paid when his program is easily bringing in 20 times as much that go to fund other sports and academics.

No chit, don't hate the player Charlie, Hate the game!

OK folks......if we must take a deeper look at what is wrong with our educational system, we must brush up on its history. (GI vet's don't read this, if you are a little government guy. It will burst your lil Tea Party bubble!)



http://mises.org/daily/78

As Patrick Riley, a professor of classical antiquity at Concordia College in Wisconsin, has argued, accrediting agencies now look beyond traditional criteria such as library resources, classroom space, and educational qualifications of faculty. They impose "diversity standards," which attempt to tell colleges and universities what they should teach, who should teach it, and to whom it should be taught.
Colleges and universities are under relentless pressure to impose racial preferences for hiring, admissions, and even curricula, just as they gave affirmative action to veterans.........

..........Whenever government has funded any type of education, that education has become politicized, academic standards have declined, and intellectual independence has been lost. The history of the G.I. Bill illustrates this truth.

[atlcomedy]

Originally Posted by slackjawyokel

So a college football coach makes more $2,000,000 more than the combined salaries of the President, the Vice President, all nine Supreme Court Justices, and the Speaker of the House. Wow. Just wow...

Of course, he does have a 13-1 record last year...

How many China's could have become PHD's for that kind of money...

Shortly after the stock market crash & onset of the Great Depression, Babe Ruth was asked what he thought of the fact that he made more money than the President of the United States. He replied, "Well I had a better year than he did."

I'll suggest things haven't changed 80 years later

[pyramider]

I still have nightmares about the Bell Curve. Nothing like going into a final not knowing what grade you have, or what grade you need to make a grade.

Why couldn't they dumb things down when I was in school? I was not dumb enough to benefit?