Free Photography

[pornodave69]

Originally Posted by Camille

....Expecting him to change his MO so you don't have to is not how it works. If you find him to be competition (because he "setup next door to you") then you have to adjust your method of supply to create more demand...not him.

So if the girl next door to you gets into the biz and charges $100, compared to your $600, and is better looking and gives better service, what would you do? You'd surely lose business. Sure a few "regulars" would stick around, but even they'd pay your neighbor a visit as well.

Originally Posted by Camille

...and you don't see providers getting pissed at these women because one is building a business out of something that the other is not...

Sure we do. Many providers complain about girls' rates being low. The lower the other girls go, the lower they have to go to compete. If not, their market shrinks. Simple economics and supply and demand. There's a big demand for low rates. Increase the supply and the girls with higher rates have to come down.

Originally Posted by Camille

The only way your business will be affected by him is if women choose to use him over you. If he does a bad job they will still come to you anyway...if they return to him then you need to re-evaluate not him.

That's the whole point. If they choose a freebie over a pro who charges the pro doesn't make any money. Potential dollars no longer exist thanks to the freebie next door. If he does a good job, you still lose money and possibly clients who prefer his work over yours and at a cheaper rate. Do I have to re-evaluate and lower my rates to compete? Would you?

[Camille]

Originally Posted by pornodave69

So if the girl next door to you gets into the biz and charges $100, compared to your $600, and is better looking and gives better service, what would you do? You'd surely lose business. Sure a few "regulars" would stick around, but even they'd pay your neighbor a visit as well.



Sure we do. Many providers complain about girls' rates being low. The lower the other girls go, the lower they have to go to compete. If not, their market shrinks. Simple economics and supply and demand. There's a big demand for low rates. Increase the supply and the girls with higher rates have to come down.



That's the whole point. If they choose a freebie over a pro who charges the pro doesn't make any money. Potential dollars no longer exist thanks to the freebie next door. If he does a good job, you still lose money and possibly clients who prefer his work over yours and at a cheaper rate. Do I have to re-evaluate and lower my rates to compete? Would you?

Dave, did you read any of this thread? Seriously? You are comparing two different pricepoints in your examples. The OP has no price point because his is not a business...he is an amateur who does NOT charge. I made the comparision in my post about how escorts are affected by women who have sex for free..and the short answer is they are not. One is in business..one is not. If the issue was REALLY about price point, then wouldn't the person I responded to be arguing the toss with the gentleman who recently posted about sessions for $50? Yet he didn't. He expects to compete with someone else in business. Trying to argue that an amateur shouldn't offer sessions because it will take away from him is like me saying women shouldn't have one night stands with men because it affects me. That's silly and untrue.

[pornodave69]

It's irrelevant. They're both services. Would you prefer or want any service that you want or need for free or pay for it? Free wins every time. No question about it. It doesn't matter what the service is.

If your neighbor was seeing guys for free you wouldn't have business, or at least not as much. The type of service doesn't matter. It's the price, or lack thereof, and the quality. Free will get them in the door. It's still money not walking in my door.

If the competition is equivalent to or better than the service I provide at a cheaper price my business suffers. PRICE POINT DOES MATTER!!!! Free vs. Expensive. Free is still a price point.

It doesn't matter if he's a "business" or not. He's doing the same job. If your neighbor is fucking guys for free, you won't have business either. Who cares if she's a "business?" NOBODY!!!! It's just a word.

[Camille]

Originally Posted by pornodave69

That's the whole point. If they choose a freebie over a pro who charges the pro doesn't make any money. Potential dollars no longer exist thanks to the freebie next door. If he does a good job, you still lose money and possibly clients who prefer his work over yours and at a cheaper rate. Do I have to re-evaluate and lower my rates to compete? Would you?

Of course I would! I wouldn't have a choice would I? If (civvie) women started having one night stands to the extent that the demand for paid escorts declined I'd have to re-evaluate. The chances of me giving it away for free are about as likely as me trying to run the civvie girls doing it for free out off my "patch."....because it would NOT meet my business needs so I would have to find another alternative that did. It would be down to me to move on in a different direction..note civvie women.

[Camille]

Originally Posted by pornodave69

If your neighbor was seeing guys for free you wouldn't have business, or at least not as much.

That's bullshit. That assumes that the guys my neighbours were seeing would pay for it in the first place. You are comparing apples and oranges. Whatever.

[Camille]

Originally Posted by pornodave69

If your neighbor is fucking guys for free, you won't have business either. Who cares if she's a "business?" NOBODY!!!! It's just a word.

Again, you are ASSUMING that all guys would pay for it. They wouldn't. A point you seem not to be grasping. I'm done anyway. You don't have to agree, but I can make a point and erm..you don't need to "SHOUT"..I'm reading not listening

[pornodave69]

Originally Posted by Camille

That's bullshit. That assumes that the guys my neighbours were seeing would pay for it in the first place. You are comparing apples and oranges. Whatever.

I'm not assuming that at all. Your assumption is false. And you assume that somehow this would mean that the guys who would pay for it won't see her for free? But what it does mean is that any guy who had the option to have the same service or better for free vs. paying anything is going to choose the freebie.

If someone paid you for your service before, why see you at your rate when I can get the same for free. If someone never paid for this type of service before and the option was free vs. pay they're still going for free.

It's a simple concept. It doesn't matter what the service is or what the product is. Free always wins.

[pornodave69]

Originally Posted by Camille

..you don't need to "SHOUT"..I'm reading not listening

"Shouting" is just a bullshit internet term. It's EMPHASIS. Easier than coding for italics and bold. You can't "listen" to text on a screen.

[PODarkness]

There are more women "giving it away", than there are charging for it, yet here we are on a silly whore board. Why?

The reasons are endless. Probably the most often quoted reason is that the free stuff costs more.

If you want to charge for photos when others give them for free, you have to convince your customers that it will cost them more in the long run, or that they will make less, by using free photos.

Imagine the women on this board telling women everywhere that by fucking the guy they met at the bar last night, they were hurting the bottom line of the provider industry. Do you think the girl who just got laid cares?

Now ask yourself if the guys doing photos for free care about your bottom line, and why they should. What's the answer?

[dfwninja]

I'm a professional marketing consultant, and I'll tell you guys the same thing I'd tell any business:

If you are in an area of a market where people are giving away your intended product for free or drastically lower price that you are, then you should quit griping about it and get into a different market.

Job: something you do for pay, because the employer couldn't find a way to get someone to do it for free.

Volunteer: someone who actively seeks to do the activity for free, because they enjoy it


The problem with photography businesses, is there are alot of people who just want to do it for fun. that's the nature of the business you got into, and you probably knew it going in. You thought it would be fun too. The key is to find an area where you can get paid for your work (schools, weddings etc).

Using the same argument in reverse, why would anyone pay a model on ModelMayhem when they have people asking them to photograph them. If two people want or need to exchange services for mutual benefit, what's the deal? It's just like Microsoft buying out a free browser (like netscape) to squish it and make sure people have to pay licensing fees for their services. (and that by the way is illegal lol)

I do not understand how anyone can realistically thing they can make money taking pics of nude women, when there are guys every day buying thousands of dollars on equipment, and paying models, just so they can get them naked. You are on the wrong side of the supply and demand.

That's not the guy that wants to take free pics fault. That's your fault for demanding money for what others will do for free. If you feel you are selling a different product than the other person is giving away, then it's your responsibility to differentiate yourself from the free stuff. Because you are a business.

corporate, businesses photography, music video production, weddings, school pictures, concerts, tv and movie production. those are just a few of the ways a photographer can make money if they are good. If they are trying to take pics of providers and other nude women, that I don't understand why that's so different from the amateur doing the same, it's a preference, because any photographer who really wants to make money knows this is not a very good place to compete.

[pornodave69]

Originally Posted by dfwninja

I do not understand how anyone can realistically thing they can make money taking pics of nude women, when there are guys every day buying thousands of dollars on equipment, and paying models, just so they can get them naked. You are on the wrong side of the supply and demand.

That's not the guy that wants to take free pics fault. That's your fault for demanding money for what others will do for free. If you feel you are selling a different product than the other person is giving away, then it's your responsibility to differentiate yourself from the free stuff. Because you are a business.

corporate, businesses photography, music video production, weddings, school pictures, concerts, tv and movie production. those are just a few of the ways a photographer can make money if they are good. If they are trying to take pics of providers and other nude women, that I don't understand why that's so different from the amateur doing the same, it's a preference, because any photographer who really wants to make money knows this is not a very good place to compete.

There is always someone who is willing to do any job, even your job, for free or at a significantly discounted rate. There is money in photographing nude women. Lot's of photographers do it. But when that same photographer is now chasing the corporate clients or weddings or whatever the case may be at a much cheaper rate he does the rest of the industry a disservice by lowering the value of everybody else's work. Would you lower your rate by 50% to compete with a new marketing person fresh out of school and hungry for work? Probably not. It's different when it affects you directly. Tell your competition to drop their rates and see how you feel about it when you lose business.

I can't tell you how many times a "new" or "cheap" photographer puts a bid in on a job at a much lower rate than the regional standard and gets the job. Usually the client is not satisfied with the work because he doesn't know what he's doing but by that time the money is in his pocket and not yours. All business is business and all revenue is revenue, regardless of what avenues are pursued to get there - whether it's photographing nude women or providers or doing weddings. A customer is a customer and he/she has money to spend.

I said it earlier, amateur photographers with digital cameras drove me and many others out of the wedding business by charging way less and delivering many more images. The problem is that most of the images were poorly composed and/or exposed and they did no post processing work to correct the images, leaving the bride and groom with hundred of useless image and very few actual good ones worthy of "professional" status. But they got paid and others didn't.

The main thing, in the case of providers, is there should at least be a service for service trade, a traditional pay for service option or some other method of payment, not just given away. It's one thing to do a freebie for a friend or family member but it shouldn't be done for the general public.

[PODarkness]

Originally Posted by pornodave69

The main thing, in the case of providers, is there should at least be a service for service trade, a traditional pay for service option or some other method of payment, not just given away. It's one thing to do a freebie for a friend or family member but it shouldn't be done for the general public.

The problem with that is that "service" is subjective. Some guys think they are doing pretty good just to have a naked girl in front of their lens. Some girls think they are Gods gift, and being able to take photos of them is payment.

The thing is, it doesn't cost a provider anything but a couple hours to try an amateur. She may not get any great pics, but it's no risk to her bottom line, and unlike a wedding, it's not her only chance to get photos done. On the other hand, she may find an amateur who knows what he's doing, and that will effect her bottom line, in a good way.

[dfwninja]

[quote=pornodave69;618380]There is always someone who is willing to do any job, even your job, for free or at a significantly discounted rate. There is money in photographing nude women. Lot's of photographers do it. But when that same photographer is now chasing the corporate clients or weddings or whatever the case may be at a much cheaper rate he does the rest of the industry a disservice by lowering the value of everybody else's work. Would you lower your rate by 50% to compete with a new marketing person fresh out of school and hungry for work? Probably not. It's different when it affects you directly. Tell your competition to drop their rates and see how you feel about it when you lose business. quote]

You are absolutely right, I deal with that too, in my business. There is always some new "top of his class" MBA fresh out of grad-school hot shot undercutting me. I see it almost everyday, and I meet them at competing businesses from the ones I represent.

The point I'm trying to make is, I don't hold them responcible for the rates they ask for, some of them have never made even $15 an hour when they were in school, so $40k sounds awesome to them. I look at it as a challenge to me to present what I have to offer as a better service than what that grad student can do. I have to WIN the argument that I'm worth it. If I can't than I need to change my market. If I'm in the wiget selling business, than maybe I need to look at taking over the sprocket business. Or maybe I need to go to a city where there aren't alot of grad students and see if I can find greener pastures there.

That being said, I do think that photography has this problem more than any other industry. I have a friend that is a photographer, and he ended up working for an oil company, because every time he tried to get a paying job over the past couple of years, there was always some employee, friend or relative with a high end consumer camera (meaning not a professional, but a camera that would be high end to an amature) that would volunteer to take the pics because he wanted to score points with the boss or show off his shiny new camera. This is happening more and more, especially when everyone is trying to cut costs now days.

But, I think that's when it's time to distinguish yourself from the crowd of GWC, and get the "GWC" term more mainstream, so you can separate the professionals from the amatures.

I've seen your work, Pornodave69, and yours BellaEroticImagery, if you take any of your finished photos, and put them next to my work, I'd be embarassed. That doesn't mean there isn't a market for both, it's just time the industry devided into two markets.

Etc: you can get a free website from geocities or one of a bunch of places now. but you get what you pay for it- nothing.

Or you can pay Yahoo or Godaddy or someone for a real site, and you get what you pay for it, about $10 a month.

Or you can pay a true professional to build and host your site. Usually more like thousands, and you get back what you paid in, because they know how to do little things like meta tags, and you show up in search engines. So now there are new guys called SEO experts, who's only job is to get you listed with search engines.

You have to adapt and change with the technology or risk being left behind, if you are having a problem with too many people giving away a simular product, it's up to you to make damn sure people don't think it's simular. Start posting some before and after pics, or post an amature pic of the same model with yours, and let people know what they are paying you for, and why it's worth the investment. All I'm saying is that's your job as a business, not the GWC job to disclose that they suck compared to you. That's kind of unrealistic of a request.