Oh Dear! Did the Trump Tax Cuts Really "Pay For Themselves"?

[lustylad]

Originally Posted by WTF

....of course tax revenues are finally up....we dumped what 5 or 6 trillion dollars into the economy that would ultimately wind up in corporate America's hands.

Originally Posted by WTF

Please tell me specifically what you think it was spent on and I'll trace it back to some corporate profit.

Originally Posted by WTF

Where do you think that 5 trillion give away went.

WTF do you think happened to that money?

I would love to hear from you and lusty just where all that free money wound up?

Lookee here folks! WTF the partisan hack is a sudden convert to TRICKLE DOWN ECONOMICS, after years of denouncing it as voodoo! He now believes that dispensing helicopter drops of cash directly into the hands of everyday Americans is the most effective way to create wealth, since all that “free money” will eventually trickle down and end up fattening the bottom lines of evil, greedy capitalist US corporations!

But if you suggest we ought to reduce the US corporate tax rate to a level where other countries won’t be able to keep eating our lunch - leaving more money in the private sector that can be spent by those same evil, greedy US corporations to expand, hire and invest in raising the living standards of everyday Americans - WTF the partisan hack calls it voodoo!

The problem with partisan hacks like WTF is they have zero credibility. They start with a conclusion, then work backwards in search of arguments to support it, instead of examining the economic data with an open mind to see what is objectively suggested by empirical evidence.

I would never say the current spike in corporate tax revenues is entirely due to a single factor. Any good economist knows many variables drive corporate profits. If I were discussing this with a real economist like CM or Tiny, I would say - let’s re-examine the assumptions behind the original CBO forecasts and see if we can dissect how much of the revenue surge may be attributable to different variables. However, since I’m dealing with a simple-minded simpleton and partisan hack like WTF, there’s no point in drilling down like that.

WTF always flips a loaded coin - heads he wins, tails you lose. If revenues explode after a tax cut, he’ll say it’s entirely due to other factors. But if revenues plummet after a tax cut, he’ll say it’s entirely due to the tax cut and therefore proves it didn’t “work”.

He’s a fraud and a phony and a hypocrite, but we already knew that, right?

[lustylad]

Originally Posted by WTF

Your right thing may differ from another's right thing.

Is that what Spike Lee told you?

Originally Posted by WTF

What they should do is stat (sic) reducing deficits and debt....something Trump lied about doing.

Trump lied about a lot of things. Get over it.

You keep telling everyone your biggest concern is "reducing deficits and debt". You rail against a long-overdue GOP tax cut, which according to the CBO would add $1.5 trillion to the debt over 10 years. That amounts to just $150 billion a year, an estimate that has since been revised sharply downward.

Meanwhile, the dim-retards shovel out $6 trillion in "free money" in less than a year, and start exploiting the covid crisis to push all kinds of idiotic wasteful spending proposals, and we hear not a peep of protest out of you.

98% of the deficit problem is on the spending side, and all you do is stupidly whine about taxes being too low. You even support student loan forgiveness, which would boost the federal debt by another $1.7 trillion with the stroke of a pen.

You're not a deficit hawk. You're a deficit hypocrite and a partisan hack. Stop pretending. You're not fooling anyone.

[lustylad]

Originally Posted by WTF

And the fucking WackoKid didn't say that. He quoted it from someone much brighter than he.

TWK was quoting from your own link. He put the whole thing in quote marks. If the author is twice as bright as TWK, then he's at least 20 times brighter than you!

[lustylad]

Originally Posted by WTF

Are you going to make the argument (again) that income inequality is responsible for the gain in tax revenues like you did with the Reagan tax sham?

Are you truly this stupid or just deliberately distorting what I said?

You're the quack who started mouthing off about the importance of finding the "sweet spot" where government tax revenues are supposedly maximized. As usual, you were trying to sound intelligent even though everyone can see right through it.

I explained to you that our federal income tax system is steeply progressive. So if you really wanted to maximize tax revenues, you would need to grow the economy in a way that accrues all income gains to the top 1%, since they pay a much higher tax rate than everyone else. That means you have to seek greater income inequality.

Still want the govt to maximize its tax revenues?

[WTF]

Originally Posted by lustylad

Lookee here folks! WTF the partisan hack is a sudden convert to TRICKLE DOWN ECONOMICS, after years of denouncing it as voodoo! He now believes that dispensing helicopter drops of cash directly into the hands of everyday Americans is the most effective way to create wealth, since all that “free money” will eventually trickle down and end up fattening the bottom lines of evil, greedy capitalist US corporations!

But if you suggest we ought to reduce the US corporate tax rate to a level where other countries won’t be able to keep eating our lunch - leaving more money in the private sector that can be spent by those same evil, greedy US corporations to expand, hire and invest in raising the living standards of everyday Americans - WTF the partisan hack calls it voodoo!

The problem with partisan hacks like WTF is they have zero credibility. They start with a conclusion, then work backwards in search of arguments to support it, instead of examining the economic data with an open mind to see what is objectively suggested by empirical evidence.

I would never say the current spike in corporate tax revenues is entirely due to a single factor. Any good economist knows many variables drive corporate profits. If I were discussing this with a real economist like CM or Tiny, I would say - let’s re-examine the assumptions behind the original CBO forecasts and see if we can dissect how much of the revenue surge may be attributable to different variables. However, since I’m dealing with a simple-minded simpleton and partisan hack like WTF, there’s no point in drilling down like that.

WTF always flips a loaded coin - heads he wins, tails you lose. If revenues explode after a tax cut, he’ll say it’s entirely due to other factors. But if revenues plummet after a tax cut, he’ll say it’s entirely due to the tax cut and therefore proves it didn’t “work”.

He’s a fraud and a phony and a hypocrite, but we already knew that, right?

You always have to lie to cover up your original lie(s).

I never said that 6 trillion was the only reason.

My thoughts have not changed on your beloved Voodoo economics. I do not believe Corporations are not either good or bad. I do believe/know that if you give away 6 trillion it will enhance the stock market...just like low low intrest rates do. As an economist you too should know these basic things.

I'm far from partisan...just because I pointed out certain negative aspects of unfretted capitalism such as income inequity which your dumbass posts inadvertently posts about as some great way to raise taxes.

I suggest you "re-examine the assumptions behind the original CBO forecasts and see if we can dissect how much of the revenue surge may be attributable to different variables" before posting a thread such as this which you try and attribute the Trump tax cuts to this surge in tax revenue.

However since your dumbass started such a silly thread with this flawed premise that the Trump tax cuts are credited with the surge in tax revenues without mentioning 6 trillion in giveaways is telling. And you are now having to lie about what I've said and my economic beliefs....any conclusion you draw would have to be viewed with skepticism.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by lustylad

Are you truly this stupid or just deliberately distorting what I said?

You're the quack who started mouthing off about the importance of finding the "sweet spot" where government tax revenues are supposedly maximized. As usual, you were trying to sound intelligent even though everyone can see right through it.

I explained to you that our federal income tax system is steeply progressive. So if you really wanted to maximize tax revenues, you would need to grow the economy in a way that accrues all income gains to the top 1%, since they pay a much higher tax rate than everyone else. That means you have to seek greater income inequality.

Still want the govt to maximize its tax revenues?

Evidently you haven't a clue between progressive and regressive taxes. You seem not to understand that Federal income tax in not the only form of tax revenue. You seem in such a hurry to paint a negative picture of what I've said so as not to grasp what idiotic assumptions you either unintentionally or intentionally make. Either way....you sound idiotic.

To talk about the "tax system" and not take into account all the various taxing entities is really a partisan hawkish conversation.

And btw there is a mythical efficient tax rate...

[WTF]

Originally Posted by lustylad

Is that what Spike Lee told you?






Trump lied about a lot of things. Get over it.

You keep telling everyone your biggest concern is "reducing deficits and debt". You rail against a long-overdue GOP tax cut, which according to the CBO would add $1.5 trillion to the debt over 10 years. That amounts to just $150 billion a year, an estimate that has since been revised sharply downward.

Meanwhile, the dim-retards shovel out $6 trillion in "free money" in less than a year, and start exploiting the covid crisis to push all kinds of idiotic wasteful spending proposals, and we hear not a peep of protest out of you.

98% of the deficit problem is on the spending side, and all you do is stupidly whine about taxes being too low. You even support student loan forgiveness, which would boost the federal debt by another $1.7 trillion with the stroke of a pen.

You're not a deficit hawk. You're a deficit hypocrite and a partisan hack. Stop pretending. You're not fooling anyone.

You're lying yet again...except about Trump lying. Wd agree on that.

I pointed out that the bullshit argument about the corporate tax cut in relation to other countries not being apples to apples and asked Tiny or you to maybe do the right thing and tell us what the "effective" corporate tax rate was , instead of using the stated as if that was what was actually paid.

I've advocated a way to actually cut spending is to raise taxes so that taxpayers have to make the choice of say do they want a War in Iraq then instead of a tax cut....which I believe that what what Bush did....there would have been a tax increase to pay for it. To correct your lie about student loan forgiveness....I think politicians should say there will be a tax increase to pay for what I think is nonsense.

So please quit lying or continue to do so and I'll continue to bitch slap you regularly.

[Why_Yes_I_Do]

Originally Posted by WTF

...May I suggest you two read this link that touches on how other countries tax vs the US so you will not continually compare apples to kumquats.
https://taxfoundation.org/us-tax-revenue-2021/
...

So I read that article and frankly it contains no inherent value for the common man on the street or even corporate big shots. It was disappointing. Try to do better. There is no relevant or actionable material contained therein. It reads like a policy-wonk lecture to under educated retards. Big frick'n news flash: lot's of entities are fleecing their peons through every orifice imaginable. We are still a Constitutional Republic. If the local entities are jerking their peons off, then adios muchachos, either through voting or relocating.

EX: Illinois is likely to be the 1st state to end up declaring bankruptcy (my opinion), because they are a hot mess of corruption and ill attuned to being responsible money managers. To my friends that still live there, I mention your name often, when I say WTF?!? I had to explain the SALT tax cap deal that Trump put in place. (limiting SALT deduction to $10K) They were crying like stuck pigs. I said: Why do you keep voting for people that are taking so much more of your money in taxes than anywhere else and why should I have to pay for all ya'lls stupidity? Sure, we still talk occasionally, but they avoid talking about taxes now.

However, there was one pearl of wisdom that it reinforced for me:
Do not ever - under any circumstance what-so-ever - allow the Fecal Government to authorize a National sales tax!!!
Unleash holy-hell on any politico that even suggests it, hunt them down in the streets and club them mercilessly figuratively perhaps.

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by Tsmokies

It's a well known fact that corporations recorded record "lossers" under trumpy and now are recording record "profits" under Biden

Dah...pay some taxes butt buy back massive stocks and fuck Americans

Fuck Americans? Without corporations and the businesses behind them where would we be? In mud huts hunting and gathering? The average profit margin on S&P 500 companies is 10%, and the majority of that 10% gets reinvested in the businesses. I'd argue the other stakeholders, like employees and customers, benefit more from corporations than the owners (shareholders), like WTF.

Efficient allocation of capital requires dividends or buy backs. If a company doesn't have good opportunities to reinvest profits, it should return them to shareholders, who can invest in more dynamic businesses. That way you don't end up with a bunch of buggy whip manufacturers, when there's no longer a demand for buggy whips.

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by WTF

May I suggest you two read this link that touches on how other countries tax vs the US so you will not continually compare apples to kumquats.

https://taxfoundation.org/us-tax-revenue-2021/


the United States, individual income taxes (federal, state, and local) were the primary source of tax revenue in 2019, at 41.5 percent of total tax revenue. Social insurance taxes made up the second-largest share, at 24.9 percent, followed by consumption taxes, at 17.6 percent, and property taxes, at 12.1 percent. Corporate income taxes accounted for 3.9 percent of total tax revenue in 2019, the second year after passage of the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, and 1.9 percentage points less than in 2017.

First, I'm glad to see you're quoting the Tax Foundation. Congressional members and staff from both sides of the aisle (although admittedly more Republicans) respect and use their work.

Second, your link uses 2019 data. As LustyLad has shown, revenues from corporate taxes have increased substantially since then. The Waco Kid and I described why.

Third, the economists at the Tax Foundation would applaud the fact that we're now raising proportionately less revenues from the corporate tax than many other countries. Here are some quotes from their work:

Economists have long understood that corporate income taxes are double taxes, since the same income is taxed once as profit, and once as individual income when distributed as dividends to shareholders.

Contrary to popular misconception, the ultimate burden of corporate income taxes doesn’t fall on corporations, but is instead borne by workers, shareholders and consumers. According to a recent Federal Reserve study, state corporate taxes hurt entrepreneurship.

https://taxfoundation.org/business-t...-income-taxes/

From 2017, before the TCJA:

The United States has the fourth highest statutory corporate income tax rate in the world, levying a 38.91 percent tax on corporate earnings. The only jurisdictions with a higher statutory rate are the United Arab Emirates, Comoros, and Puerto Rico.

The worldwide average statutory corporate tax rate has consistently decreased since 1980, with the largest decline occurring in the early 2000s.
The average statutory corporate tax rate has declined in every region since 1980.

https://taxfoundation.org/corporate-...he-world-2017/

Raising taxes on corporations is often sold as an easy way to fund helpful government services, but the reality is that increasing the corporate income tax hurts the very people those services are meant to help.

That’s because the businesses that physically pay the corporate income tax bill (what’s called legal incidence) aren’t the only ones bearing the economic burden (or economic incidence) of the tax.

Corporate income taxes make it more expensive for businesses to invest in technology and equipment that can increase efficiency, produce more product breakthroughs, and generate higher revenue – all things that enable companies to increase wages through raises, bonuses, and promotions, and to create new jobs.

Studies show that higher corporate taxes reduce wages most for young workers, the low-skilled, and women, groups that already face significant barriers to working, like limited transportation or high childcare costs.

Many economists, including those at the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD), agree that the corporate income tax is one of the most harmful and least efficient ways to fund our priorities.

https://taxfoundation.org/who-bears-...te-income-tax/

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by WTF

Are you two really going to discount the 6 trillion stimulus and laude the Trump tax cuts as the impetus to increased tax revenue in 2021?

Could you please make your case? You haven't yet.

You should be looking at the ratio, (federal tax revenue from corporate and individual income taxes)/GDP. Otherwise you're just pointing out that tax revenues are up because of inflation.

The denominator in the ratio will definitely go up, because the stimulus spending that didn't go into savings went into consumption and capital formation. That alone would cause tax revenues as a % of GDP to go down, which is the opposite of what you're saying.

For what you say to be true, the numerator has go up more, in percentage terms, than the denominator. Why would the stimulus spending cause that? Could the positive effects of the TCJA on pretax income in 2021 and 2022 have boosted the numerator? Again, please note from what the Waco Kid and I posted that the tax cuts on business take some some to show positive effects on pre-tax profits.

I'm not saying you're completely wrong. I'm just saying you haven't made your case.

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by WTF

I...asked Tiny or you to maybe do the right thing and tell us what the "effective" corporate tax rate was , instead of using the stated as if that was what was actually paid.

Good point. The politicians totally fucked up the tax code. Some companies started recognizing most of their profits in tax havens, so they paid close to 0% rates. Others paid the full federal tax burden of 35%. If you're an exporter based in the USA and you're paying a 40% federal + state income tax rate, how do you compete with Europeans and Asians who have a 20% or 25% income tax rate?

The TCJA made the playing field more equal, with a new tax on "Global Intangible Low Taxed Income."

Ryan wanted to go further, and replace the corporate income tax with a kind of value added tax, that would be rebated to exporters, but it was not to be.

The TCJA was a good start. There are still lots of loopholes in the system that need to be removed. Perhaps that could enable us to lower taxes on the working man, pass through businesses, and investors.

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by lustylad

The problem with partisan hacks like WTF is they have zero credibility. They start with a conclusion, then work backwards in search of arguments to support it, instead of examining the economic data with an open mind to see what is objectively suggested by empirical evidence.

I would never say the current spike in corporate tax revenues is entirely due to a single factor. Any good economist knows many variables drive corporate profits. If I were discussing this with a real economist like CM or Tiny, I would say - let’s re-examine the assumptions behind the original CBO forecasts and see if we can dissect how much of the revenue surge may be attributable to different variables.

I'm pretty good with project economics, and otherwise am nowhere near in the same league with you and CM. Thanks though.

WTF has his occasional flashes of brilliance. And when he gets off onto other topics besides taxes and economics he's normally a reasonable person.

His problem I think is that he doesn't think enough for himself and instead relies on news sources that cater to his prejudices. I view his quoting the Tax Foundation in one of his recent posts as a good sign.

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by Why_Yes_I_Do

So I read that article and frankly it contains no inherent value for the common man on the street or even corporate big shots. It was disappointing.

Au contraire. WTF is reading Tax Foundation pieces, not the MSM! If he keeps it up he's going to be on the same page with you and me.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by Why_Yes_I_Do

So I read that article and frankly it contains no inherent value for the common man on the street or even corporate big shots. It was disappointing. Try to do better. There is no relevant or actionable material contained therein. It reads like a policy-wonk lecture to under educated retards.

I posted that for the numbnuts who were trying to compare our corporate tax rate vs other nations.

Now stfu everyone knows you ain't got friends!

I agree with your SALT recap. We should not pay for other states tax policies