Papers

[WTF]

Originally Posted by OliviaHoward

. But in the end, I think they poor and uneducated are less likely to go vote even if they are registered.

Then why are we spending all this money on getting folks registered.

Why are we having this three ring circus...show up and give a social security number.

Or lets start using purple ink!

No write in votes either....your ass needs to go down to the polls on the day of voting to show the kind of commitment that PJ thinks necessary!

More I think about it the more we should go back to the 1776 like the Tea Folks want! No women voting!

[pjorourke]

Originally Posted by WTF

More I think about it the more we should go back to the 1776 like the Tea Folks want! No women voting!

Now you are talking some sense.

[pjorourke]

Originally Posted by OliviaHoward

Oh, ok, then yes, I agree. I think THEY are less likely to get themselves registered on their own, but there are many civil groups that are registering people in mass.

And can you picture these same groups walking around with a notebook computer and a hand full of cash to buy all the votes they want.

Oh, and Chuck, picture this "community organizer" with the wad of cash working for a big bad corporation like maybe Halliburton.

[Guest050715-1]

Originally Posted by WTF

Then why are we spending all this money on getting folks registered.

I have no idea. Lead a horse to water, but can't make him drink syndrome?

Originally Posted by WTF

Why are we having this three ring circus...show up and give a social security number.

I think it needs to be pictured ID.

[pyramider]

Too easy to get a picture ID. Go to any fleamarket and you can score an ID that would be passable to the untrained eye.

[Naomi4u]

Originally Posted by pyramider

Too easy to get a picture ID. Go to any fleamarket and you can score an ID that would be passable to the untrained eye.

Yup!

[charlestudor2005]

Originally Posted by pjorourke

And can you picture these same groups walking around with a notebook computer and a hand full of cash to buy all the votes they want.

Oh, and Chuck, picture this "community organizer" with the wad of cash working for a big bad corporation like maybe Halliburton.

Actually, when I first started working precincts no one got cash, it was a pint of whiskey that got the votes.

[Black Sedan]

Originally Posted by atlcomedy

I'm pretty sure PJ was kidding...

Maybe, there are conservatives that do hold that opinion - I'm not even for private real property ownership; improvements thereon are a different matter. Eventually, all property rights will be assigned by lease, and not be owned by real individuals who occupy said lands. Won't that be fun? Sounds a bit like the feudal system? (Ok this is a tangent, and I'm done.)

Originally Posted by atlcomedy

that said, what type of controls do you suggest on voting if any?

registration is the process that ensures residency and you are not part of a class (felons) that has given up that right.

FTFY: residency -> eligibility. True - but this is a prior restraint regime. We have law that says if a felon or other ineligible person votes, it's a crime. With modern information systems technology, that's not a big deal to detect.

Originally Posted by atlcomedy

under your "just show up" program, what if any, documentation do you need to provide to prove your bonafides?

None but your physical presence at the polls & ink-dipping your finger once voting to prevent ballot stuffing. I won't expound on the corner cases (disabled, infirmed) because it's just not going to fucking happen here, but there are solutions to deal with that.

And without revealing too much about me, I know all too well how the fact that it is public record WHO voted in every election makes for political targeting. Maybe we don't need that information available in a democracy.

We keep precincts sufficiently small and homogenous, that it is entirely possible to predict how a particular household's political preferences fall, based on their voting precinct performance in various partisan elections, and their available personal and aggregate consumer from data warehouse firms. It creates a perversion of democracy.

[atlcomedy]

Originally Posted by Black Sedan

Maybe, there are conservatives that do hold that opinion - I'm not even for private real property ownership; improvements thereon are a different matter. Eventually, all property rights will be assigned by lease, and not be owned by real individuals who occupy said lands. Won't that be fun? Sounds a bit like the feudal system? (Ok this is a tangent, and I'm done.)



FTFY: residency -> eligibility. True - but this is a prior restraint regime. We have law that says if a felon or other ineligible person votes, it's a crime. With modern information systems technology, that's not a big deal to detect.



None but your physical presence at the polls & ink-dipping your finger once voting to prevent ballot stuffing. I won't expound on the corner cases (disabled, infirmed) because it's just not going to fucking happen here, but there are solutions to deal with that.

And without revealing too much about me, I know all too well how the fact that it is public record WHO voted in every election makes for political targeting. Maybe we don't need that information available in a democracy.

We keep precincts sufficiently small and homogenous, that it is entirely possible to predict how a particular household's political preferences fall, based on their voting precinct performance in various partisan elections, and their available personal and aggregate consumer from data warehouse firms. It creates a perversion of democracy.

You are naive if you think voting places are small enough that the poll workers know everybody...particularly outside of small town America.

Let's take your finger ink/no documentation necessary scenario: I'm a legit citizen. I moved a year ago from congressional district 1 to district 2. I'm still registered in both* (& again if you don't believe this happens often, again you are naive). The outcome in 2 is not in question but 1 is a dead heat. I drive a half an hour and vote for my gal in district 1. How does your ink dip plan handle this?

*I actually think voter turnout is greatly understated. I don't know how much, but significant. There are millions of registered voters on the rolls in geographies where they no longer reside & of course don't vote. Turnout numbers are only meaningful in the relative (e.g vs. last year), not in the absolute.

[Black Sedan]

Originally Posted by atlcomedy

You are naive if you think voting places are small enough that the poll workers know everybody...particularly outside of small town America.

Let's take your finger ink/no documentation necessary scenario: I'm a legit citizen. I moved a year ago from congressional district 1 to district 2. I'm still registered in both* (& again if you don't believe this happens often, again you are naive). The outcome in 2 is not in question but 1 is a dead heat. I drive a half an hour and vote for my gal in district 1. How does your ink dip plan handle this?

*I actually think voter turnout is greatly understated. I don't know how much, but significant. There are millions of registered voters on the rolls in geographies where they no longer reside & of course don't vote. Turnout numbers are only meaningful in the relative (e.g vs. last year), not in the absolute.

I wrote two different scenarios to be responsive. Maybe that was confusing.

In one, I suggested anonymous voting: No documentation other than prima facie proof that you had not voted yet. It does not address at all whether the voter is eligible to vote at all.

Answer: The voter still only voted once. You suggest that busloads of voters will be brought in to stuff the ballot boxes? It can be done now through false registration and fake IDs (with just a little preplanning) What if I have two apartments, three? Where is my residency, really? It is currently illegal to be registered in more than one jurisdiction.

Actually, I think you defeat your own argument showing how voter registration fails us as a check, so why have it, other than disenfranchisement.

[atlcomedy]

Originally Posted by Black Sedan

I wrote two different scenarios to be responsive. Maybe that was confusing.

In one, I suggested anonymous voting: No documentation other than prima facie proof that you had not voted yet. It does not address at all whether the voter is eligible to vote at all.

Answer: The voter still only voted once. You suggest that busloads of voters will be brought in to stuff the ballot boxes? It can be done now through false registration and fake IDs (with just a little preplanning) What if I have two apartments, three? Where is my residency, really? It is currently illegal to be registered in more than one jurisdiction.

Actually, I think you defeat your own argument showing how voter registration fails us as a check, so why have it, other than disenfranchisement.

So my Uncle Franz from Germany, his wife Greta & their 6 kids are on Holiday in my town on election day....can they vote? What stops them if they don't have ink already on their finger?

I'm not saying the current system isn't without issue, but some controls are in place.

What about primaries or special elections that occur on different days? Are they open season? Surely your magic ink wears off after bathing. You do believe in bathing, don't you?