Chick Fil A, Gay Marriage & The Bloggers...

[Bebe Le Strange]

Originally Posted by Rudyard K

Like it or not, we all get some sense of our right and wrong based on some religious foundation. Without such a foundation, then why is theft wrong, or killing, or any number of things that I think most all of would agree are wrong. Otherwise, "If it feels good, do it" rules the earth. And there are a lot of things I might do that many of you folks might not like.

You are speaking of morals. I think that most people inherently know that it is wrong to steal, kill, etc. This is rational thinking based on logic, not necessarily based on religious ideas. It is not the foundation of religion that brings rational, logical people to this conclusion. Morals can thereby be based on science, logic.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by Rudyard K

It is hard to be consistant in degrees DG. The white supremist organizations clearly discriminate against other races (and religions)...they do so open and in your face sometimes. But the other organizations do the same...just with a little more class. If you want to hold the banner for non-discrimination, you must hold the banner against all discriminating organizations. Otherwise, you lose credibility...at least with me.



.

Agreed

Originally Posted by Rudyard K

People of a religious persuasion are getting tired of having the outcomes crammed down their throats .

Well then , tell them to quit shoving down their beliefs down others throat. Good Lord, that is an easy solution. You don't want an abortion, don't get one. You don't wanna have sex with a hooker , wack off. I could go on and on but enough with the holier than thou from one side or the other!

[discreetgent]

Originally Posted by Rudyard K

It is hard to be consistant in degrees DG. The white supremist organizations clearly discriminate against other races (and religions)...they do so open and in your face sometimes. But the other organizations do the same...just with a little more class. If you want to hold the banner for non-discrimination, you must hold the banner against all discriminating organizations. Otherwise, you lose credibility...at least with me.

We don't disagree on your premise. But there is still a fundamental difference, in my mind, of organizations whos raison d'etre is to discriminate against others and organizations whos raison d'etre is to work against discrimination. So yes, you can bring up affirmative action as a discrimanatory program - heck I agree with you on that which means that groups will often do things in the process which we disagree with, and yes even think is discriminatory to others, but the intent (and yes the road to hell is paved with good intentions) is significantly different.

[nevergaveitathought]

Originally Posted by WTF

Agreed

Well then , tell them to quit shoving down their beliefs down others throat. Good Lord, that is an easy solution. You don't want an abortion, don't get one. You don't wanna have sex with a hooker , wack off. I could go on and on but enough with the holier than thou from one side or the other!

every law..every regulation every almost everything is the outgrowth of someones idea of morality...your simplicity isnt simple..you prefer laws you like..so what..why cant other people?

[Bebe Le Strange]

Originally Posted by nevergaveitathought

every law..every regulation every almost everything is the outgrowth of someones idea of morality...your simplicity isnt simple..you prefer laws you like..so what..why cant other people?

Just because people "like it" doesn't make the laws right.

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by Bebe Le Strange

Just because people "like it" doesn't make the laws right.

Just ask all of the drunks who stumbled into the polls and voted for the Volstead Act!

[nevergaveitathought]

Originally Posted by Bebe Le Strange

Just because people "like it" doesn't make the laws right.

huh? and re-huh?

exactly, WTF has his likes and agrees with laws he likes and wants laws he likes, so what?

[Rudyard K]

Originally Posted by Bebe Le Strange

You are speaking of morals. I think that most people inherently know that it is wrong to steal, kill, etc. This is rational thinking based on logic, not necessarily based on religious ideas. It is not the foundation of religion that brings rational, logical people to this conclusion. Morals can thereby be based on science, logic.

What makes it wrong to kill, steal, etc?...other than a sense of morality based upon some spiritual belief? Without such basis, then if I believe I need what you have, then I take it. Why wouldn't I? The only thing stopping me would be a fear of law, or a fear that you might whup my ass. But if I'm confident I can whup your ass, then nothing other than a sense of morality keeps me from doing so. Civilization evolved to be somewhat civilized out of a common need for purpose. That common need for purpose manifested itself as serving a higher being. You can say that is ignorance, and you can be right, but you can be wrong too.

Society's view of morality changes with popularity. There was a day when slavery was not immoral...at least as viewed by society. My belief is that things are either moral or immoral. And the whims of society, or the passing of time, does not change that.

The laws we pass, and try to adhear to, are no more than an attempt by man, to live together, without violating most people's mores. But don't mistake laws for morality. They are not even close to the same thing. And if some form of religion is a basic part of most of society (which it most definately is) it is fools play to try and exclude those fundemental tenants from the discussion.

[Rudyard K]

Originally Posted by WTF

Well then , tell them to quit shoving down their beliefs down others throat. Good Lord, that is an easy solution. You don't want an abortion, don't get one. You don't wanna have sex with a hooker , wack off. I could go on and on but enough with the holier than thou from one side or the other!

Well then quit trying to shove your belief's down theirs. I believe you tell them not to kill. I believe you tell them not to steal. You can't put your mores on another, and not expect them to do the same.

[Rudyard K]

Originally Posted by discreetgent

We don't disagree on your premise. But there is still a fundamental difference, in my mind, of organizations whos raison d'etre is to discriminate against others and organizations whos raison d'etre is to work against discrimination. So yes, you can bring up affirmative action as a discrimanatory program - heck I agree with you on that which means that groups will often do things in the process which we disagree with, and yes even think is discriminatory to others, but the intent (and yes the road to hell is paved with good intentions) is significantly different.

Damn...you just had to use something I would have to look up, huh?

I don't disagree with your thought's DG. But it is hard to stand on some moral ground when you're just talking about degrees of morality. When we can all accept the fact that other's have their own opinion or view of what is right (no matter how distorted yours may be ) and simply discuss the issues as they come, without one group trying to capture the high moral ground over the other...then maybe, just maybe, we can come up with a pratical solution, that fits the most people's mores, and all of us can shoulder the fact or shame (equally) that we are still going to screw some folks.

[Bebe Le Strange]

Originally Posted by Rudyard K

What makes it wrong to kill, steal, etc?...other than a sense of morality based upon some spiritual belief? Without such basis, then if I believe I need what you have, then I take it. Why wouldn't I? The only thing stopping me would be a fear of law, or a fear that you might whup my ass. But if I'm confident I can whup your ass, then nothing other than a sense of morality keeps me from doing so. Civilization evolved to be somewhat civilized out of a common need for purpose. That common need for purpose manifested itself as serving a higher being. You can say that is ignorance, and you can be right, but you can be wrong too.

Society's view of morality changes with popularity. There was a day when slavery was not immoral...at least as viewed by society. My belief is that things are either moral or immoral. And the whims of society, or the passing of time, does not change that.

The laws we pass, and try to adhear to, are no more than an attempt by man, to live together, without violating most people's mores. But don't mistake laws for morality. They are not even close to the same thing. And if some form of religion is a basic part of most of society (which it most definately is) it is fools play to try and exclude those fundemental tenants from the discussion.

Edit: You miss my point. Morals are inherent, hard wired somewhat in a normal rational person's brain. It wasn't any religion that created that, and you don't need religion to have morals. If it is some religious more that is keeping you from hurting someone, because your afraid someone in the sky is going to punish you later on after death, then there is indeed something wrong.

"Questions of morality are questions about happiness and suffering, This is why you and I do not have moral obligations toward rocks. To the degree that our actions can affect the experience of other creatures positively or negatively, questions of morality apply. The idea that the bible is a perfect guide to morality is simply astounding, given it's contents of the book. "

"Questions about values--about meaning, morality, and life's larger purpose--are really questions about the well being of conscious creatures. Values, therefore, translate into facts that can be scientifically understood: regarding positive and negative social emotions, retributive impulses, the effects of specific laws and social institutions on human relationships, the neurophysiology of happiness and suffering, etc. "


What stops you from hurting others is that you realize the basic concepts of right and wrong and the logic behind it. Now if you are rationalizing that laws based on some religious mores are laws worth keeping, whatever that might be, I disagree. Like I said "just because someone likes it doesn't make it right". A murderer might decide in his/her un rational thinking that it's ok to make laws to let them kill people. Absurd right? In addition there are laws based on religious mores that are not based on actual facts or logic. Include in the many case and point "prostitution". As controversial as it may be, most of the reasoning behind keeping it prohibited is that most believe it is immoral. Discriminatory laws are pretty much the same. It's more about irrational thinking about another race, gender, not based on actual facts.

And yes, you are right as people become more educated on the real facts of issues, as time goes by they change the laws.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by nevergaveitathought

every law..every regulation every almost everything is the outgrowth of someones idea of morality...your simplicity isnt simple..you prefer laws you like..so what..why cant other people?

The only problem I have is crying about me doing to you the exact same thing you are doing to me. That was my point to RK and now you. Shove away or not, I will respond accordingly, I understand how life works.

Originally Posted by Rudyard K

Well then quit trying to shove your belief's down theirs. I believe you tell them not to kill. I believe you tell them not to steal. You can't put your mores on another, and not expect them to do the same.

Agreed, what are you crying about Rudyard? That I happen to agree with you

[nevergaveitathought]

Originally Posted by WTF

The only problem I have is crying about me doing to you the exact same thing you are doing to me. That was my point to RK and now you. Shove away or not, I will respond accordingly, I understand how life works.

arent you saying now what i previously said to you? confusing

[WTF]

Originally Posted by nevergaveitathought

arent you saying now what i previously said to you? confusing

I said it to RK and you said it to me, he said it to DG.

It went something like this.

RK, ''DG, religious folks are tired of them darn atheist trying to shove something down our throats.''
WTF, "Well RK, then you might wanna tell them religious folks to quit shoving shit down others throat.''
nevergivesitathought, '' Hey there WTF, don't everybody do that?''
RK, "Well then WTF, tell your people to quit shoving their beliefs down out throats"
WTF, "neverthinksmuch, I was just informing RK that his side does the very same thing that he was crying about the other side doing."
WTF, "Hey Rudyard, I agree with you, if you are saying both sides are doing it!"
neveradullmoment, " Hey WTF, isn't that what I just said to you?''
WTF, "WTF you boys smoking?"

[Bebe Le Strange]

Originally Posted by WTF

I said it to RK and you said it to me, he said it to DG.

It went something like this.

RK, ''DG, religious folks are tired of them darn atheist trying to shove something down our throats.''
WTF, "Well RK, then you might wanna tell them religious folks to quit shoving shit down others throat.''
nevergivesitathought, '' Hey there WTF, don't everybody do that?''
RK, "Well then WTF, tell your people to quit shoving their beliefs down out throats"
WTF, "neverthinksmuch, I was just informing RK that his side does the very same thing that he was crying about the other side doing."
WTF, "Hey Rudyard, I agree with you, if you are saying both sides are doing it!"
neveradullmoment, " Hey WTF, isn't that what I just said to you?''
WTF, "WTF you boys smoking?"

LMFAO...

Now them there is some good comedy!