A few of you gentlemen don't deserve the "gentle".

[curiousbill101]

Ditto to this sentiment...I'm new to the scene and really like this place--alot! Rotten apples on both sides (providers and hobbiests) can sour the experience for everyone.

Weeding "the bad out" is a benefit to good for everyone, imho....peace!

Originally Posted by Shackleton

BJ, I hope you expose these scum suckers and publicly post their handles. They do every guy who plays by the rules a disservice by driving gals out of the hobby and making them distrust all guys. I understand you do not want to cause drama, but if there are no consequences to this sort of behavior, then it will surely be repeated. At a minimum, post their phone numbers and usernames in the ladies sections and in the national blacklists.

[longtalltexan311]

What a bunch of F'sticks. All I can say...

[curiousbill101]

Great points LL! I would think service for service should/would be acceptable if parties involved believe there's parity when making the arrangement.

That said, some on both sides (hobbiests and providers) try to take advantage or deceive for personal gain--and the the acceptance/tolerance of this practice definitely does more harm than good.

People tend to be consistent--so there's probably something real about concerns involving certain hobbiests and/or providers are associated with suspect behavior over and over and over again....imho.

Originally Posted by LazurusLong

First off, I am NOT trying to defend any of the actions by those calling and txting.

However.

A long time ago on another board, it was posted by Staff that "offering a service for a service" was fine.

So what if a member offers to take photos in exchange for a session? Does anyone honestly think everyone who takes photos does it for cash in hand? You're joking and insane if you think photos for a session is NOT pretty common.

I've seen ads for providers offering discounts for their first reviews. Or for continued reviews The only problem mentioned by staff on the other site was if there was some sort of "pressure" implied. PC offers a review discount, so does Southern Comfort Studio.

Apparently the offer of a review for a free session offends? How about if they had offered her a half price session? Offered to pay for her hotel room? $25 and a box of condoms?

Is the bottom line that he didn't offer ANY cash? If yes, then it is simply a price point discussion and NOT that he offered to barter a review for the session because if that is a bad thing, then I hope ECCIE prohibits the providers from posting ads offering discounts for reviews.

What really IS the problem? Have you ever had a girl tell you about a friend and give you a good deal to see an unknown quantity but tell you that you have to write an honest review? Review bartering happens every single day around any message board.

How about when a private group of clients "finds a new girl" and that inner circle gets one price but then helps her get on here for a much higher one? Is that fair?

As for ad posting. As long as the staff of any review board is aware of the situation, what's wrong with that? Posting ads take time and as busy and forgetful as many providers happen to be, knowing they have ads up on ECCIE and maybe the other review sites SHOULD have a price.

Same for screening help isn't it? There are screeners around who happen to be male. Guess what? You will never know unless YOU are the one doing it. It is why I hate email screening because I never know who is really getting my info and why I love P411 so much but even that is not foolproof to keep guys away from my data but at least with P411 all they get is my code.

Bottom line?

Other than the WKs posting here, I'm not even sure why BJ got upset given that what happened did not happen here on the board but off site AND unless you are really new to this world, this shit happens every day. Multiple times. If BJ helps her screen and turns her onto some of her nice clients, would it offend anyone if BJ got paid some amount for helping and screening?

BJ stated they did not use a handle and that this happened off the board. So unless ECCIE staff is going to act like off board hobby police and make a determination as to just what "horrible" thing happened off site, I really don't think ECCIE staff should be involved at all.
---------------
Shackleton - Let me ask you this. Ever go look at the photo album of the guy who takes all those photos of the Southern Comfort girls? And an awful lot of the girls who post ads on this site?

Ask yourself whether it is ANY of your business whether he gets a session (or two) or cash for his hard work in providing photos for the escort to use in her ads before you get so fired up and call them a bad person.

As I said, I'm playing Devil's Advocate here but let be real about what happened and keep your eyes open.

[gregory_m2003]

agree with LL's point of view.. while I don't approve of their tactics and attitude, i don't see it as something really dangerous and worth creating a fuss..

From BJ's account, i don't see anything like threat of violence or sabotage being used to get a free session. it seemed like they were offering a barter deal.. instead of paying cash they were offering a service or favor. if you don't like the deal say no and move along.

[mikahranae]

The problem is they are taking advantage of the fact that they are obviously a well respected reviewer. Reviews from a guy that nobody knows will not earn the girl alot of business like the guy promised. It seems like most of the guys would totally be against deals like this. Don't you want an honest review that the girl worked hard for? I offered a "review" special when I first started because I thought it would generate more business. I soon realized that it was not such a good idea to do so. I just got a few clients to take advantage of my special rate and never got a review from either of them. I try my best to make my clients feel special and if they want to write a review great, if not that's cool too. I found out it's not the reviews that help, it is the way I treat my clients and the way I keep them coming back. Sure being the flavor of the month gets you alot of business for a short period of time, but repeat clients will come back even when that short period of time has long passed. The fact that these guys are trying to get the new girls to make a deal with them just shows they are scumbags. They think they can take advantage of the girls that are new to the business and don't know any better.

[SirThomasTew]

The idle reader could take this as a nice AD hominem on all hobbyists that offer a service for their time just as a fine lass such as yourself offers a service for your time with the expectations of compensation in one form or another.

I heard about this discussion tonight at a party and I can say with certainty the only profession near as old as the one for which this site is dedicated is the profession of offering commensurate services in lieu of receiving the services of the oldest profession known to man.

Your bilious tone smacks more of the offense of omission than the offense of intent.

No one can pretend to defend the asinine offering of a review for a tryst (whether discounted or free), but to condemn the entire model of “time is money” over a few bad apples seems a bit draconian.

I just hope this alleged “photographer” in question possesses better equipment, backdrops, less scotch tape on the equipment and photography skills than they do tact, and soon, access to this board.

[LazurusLong]

@Mikah,

I wish I had seen YOUR review for a discount session offer since as as you can see, I do post reviews here and combine that with some fine recommendations from a few friends of mine who say you are a "very nice visit", and would have loved to write one afterward.

[Saturn]

Originally Posted by fortwortholdguy

I then tried to explain to her that the area she was in is very hot insofar as LE is concerned. I can't believe none of her mentors told her that. I advised her that the corridor she's in is heavily monitored, and to be extremely careful. I think a phone rings somewhere every time a hot young chick checks into a room alone at most of those places.

.

There are some people on the board who don't want to believe the evidence that arlington is a dangerous place to hobby. Vice is strong in the city. I wish more girls would learn that and stay away from that area. Just about any other city is better than Arlington.



BJ - glad you brought this up - Many new girls are "rushed" when they come into the hobby world and made all sorts of promises by jerks and people loooking to exploit their "newness".

Letting, Kelly, Fawn, Max all know about these jerks is a good way to get this resolved through back channels.

[Guest050613-02]

Doesn't this whole thing wreak of last year's Control Freak saga? Difference was he f'ed up with a contract & a paper trail. We were all up in arms about that & he is no longer welcome among our merry band of theives (or has a new handle anyway). But IMHO there IS a contract here, among us hobbyists anyway:

We all pay for pie then honestly review the good & the bad. Cream rises to the top; B&S, hygiene issues, false advertising, drama, pimps, etc. are revealed as buyer beware.

When deals for positive reviews happen, it undermines the basic trust of the contract. If that were not so, why does the reviewer not start his review with, "DISCLAIMER: I got this free session in exchange for this positive review/pictures I took?" Obviously, because that would discredit the review & reviewer.

The girls can make whatever business decisions they want--give it away, barter for rent/food/photographs, raise their rates... whatever. But the fundamental social contract among us mongers is that a review is honest & without reciprication. We all agree with this or else the offending parties would be stepping up in this thread to say, "yea, I made that offer. What is it to you?" Never going to happen.

[Chevalier]

Originally Posted by ReadCT

If that were not so, why does the reviewer not start his review with, "DISCLAIMER: I got this free session in exchange for this positive review/pictures I took?"

I have disclosed in reviews that I took advantage of the PC "frequent reviewer" discount. (Of course, it was prominently advertised by PC so everyone was aware of it anyway, and it was only $50 off instead of a freebie. Eventually I told Gina to take me off the Frequent Reviewer program so I wouldn't feel obligated to write a review.) I disclosed in another review that at the end of the session the lady offered a fairly substantial "client loyalty" discount on my next session if I wrote a review of the first one. (That wasn't the reason for writing the review and as it turned out, I never did get around to seeing her again, so didn't claim the discount.)

As long as the review is honest and such discounts are disclosed in the review, I don't think that constitutes a violation of the implied contract between us. Some people may disagree. *shrug*

[1thatgotaway]

@Cheviler If everyone was like you we would not have a need for posts like this. The problem is not everyone is a stand up guy.

@all

The problem with the "free session for a review" is the shift in perspective. This board is for customers to share information about their experiences. If someone is getting a free session for a review they are no longer the customer. They are selling reviews. The provider is the customer. The only valid review that situation could produce would come from the provider and could tell us how much of a manipulative bastard the guy was.

In my business I have some customers that are real cock suckers (figuratively). However any reference or review of them they want me to write will be glowing. Why? I want them to keep paying me. This is no different.

So guys, do you want to make decisions based on reviews that were purchased?

~1TGA

[pyramider]

The lesson to learned is to always have the filter working.

[69er]

The mixing of a "Review" and Compensation in exchange for a review, are not unique to this hobby.

Have you purchased a magazine because you wished to view the review on some items the magazine covers? You note the review sounds less like a review, and more like the ad copy for the item you were looking for the review on. You then notice several ad's for the item in the magazine, typically fairly prominent, perhaps half or full page... You've been scammed. You just paid for a magazine that professes to review items, where they are selling ad space to advertisers, using the ad copy and press releases to generate so called reviews, and raking in the money for nothing more than selling you a catalog of goods for purchase. Is it ethical to accept money in the form of ads or "pay for placement" for the "review"? That is your call, but it can make them lots of money! Note this doesn't mean the item is either good or bad, the review is simply an advertisement.

This is not a unique situation. The degree to which it occurs is heavily influenced by how much reputation the reviewer has at risk, and how much they are compensated for the review.

Unfortunately, the various review boards I have been a part of over the years have seen varying amounts of this. As a consumer we have to temper a reviewers comments with knowledge of what can occur. That is why multiple reviews are always good. One good review is a hint, two good reviews a trend, twenty good reviews are almost proof positive.

In the end, trust in the majority, they will seldom lead you wrong.

[Guest030911]

Originally Posted by Precision45

Unless names are mentioned, then what is the point? If you want guys to stop harassing you, the ONLY way to solve the problem is to name names.

I'm with BJ 100% in that these guys are predators, but let's solve the problem, not rant about it. The only reason CF and WS got booted last year was because someone stepped up and outted them with proof to back it up.

My same first thought, too.


If a guy here gets an upsell from a gal, he will post as much info as allowed telling how f**ked up it was of her.

BJ, you are reporting just the opposite; A downsell - Guys offering to use the resources of this board as leverage to get free or discounted sex.
I say name them. You brought the drama already. Now everyone wonders which guys are guilty of it. Naming them will clear the innocent.


Just like there are girls who do not play the game straight up, there are guys who don't play it straight, either. It's a fact. Report their ass if they are trying to play some shady games on you. The men do it to the women all the time.


Besides, Dallas is sooooo boring compared to New Orleans and Houston forums. We need something real to talk about.

Name them so that we may ridicule them.
It will amuse me and give me pleasure.

[Guest030911]

Originally Posted by jfred

I don't know who you "used to be" on that other board, but I like the way you think.



P.S. I like the way BJ thinks, too.

Jfred, I love the way you think too, man!



LL sounds very familiar to me, too. However, he has some salient points. Services and barters that do not involve leveraging reviews are fine in many members eyes. Of course, some will always frown on anyone who ventures out of the "typical john" role.

I had a few people ask me about asking for discounts from non verified providers not too long ago. I told em all is fair in love and war, but they would risk getting the reputations damaged if they regularly engaged in that or it went sour.