STAND WITH HOBBY LOBBY...

[WTF]

They love McViegh too but just don't have the balls to admit it!

[Sidewinder]

Timmy, some of us are old enough to remember 1993.

Some of us are old enough to remember the whole 1993 Waco debacle.

You clearly are not.

Koresh's firearms work was, as far as anyone knew at that moment, done strictly inside the letter and spirit of the law.

The allegations of child abuse were unsupported by ANY evidence whatsoever. They were made solely to get the state of Texas to loan helicopters to the assault.

If the Feds had wanted to arrest Koresh, all they had to do was wait, out of sight, until he went out in one of his routine jogging runs. He routinely jogged alone, outdoors. (Source: the Waco sheriff, in the press, at the time.)

As for walking out the door with his hands up, get real: The BATFinks showed up, WITH AN ARMY!, and, instead of knocking at the door, just immediately started shooting. At that point, NOBODY in anything even remotely resembling his right mind is going to walk out the door, with his hands up or down, empty or full of a weapon.

Once the siege was laid, Koresh believed, apparently with justification, that the government's intent was to kill him and everyone there. (Ask why the fire trucks were held back, over a mile from the house, when the final conflagration started.)

Being a fucking nut is not supposed to be a capital crime in this country.

[budman33]

All posturing and nonsense. hobby Lobby just doesn't want to provide health insurance for its employees. contraceptives and abortions is just the straw man argument. fuck em. the founder is a Christian not a Catholic, their plan doesn't have to cover abortions.


"Under the Affordable Care Act, the state-sponsored health insurance exchanges must include at least one plan that doesn’t cover abortion services and no health plans that list abortion in their essential benefits package can participate. The law also gives each state exchange the freedom to ban health plans that offer abortion services, while also allowing states to offer plans that include greater access to funding for abortions. Employers will still need to pay for contraception, or face the fine, with a few very narrow exceptions.

If you have a pre-existing condition, your health plan, under Obama, will not cover abortions unless the pregnancy endangers your life, or you are the victim of rape or incest."

http://www.kff.org/healthreform/upload/8021.pdf

[i'va biggen]

Oh shit facts that will fuck this debate.

[timpage]

Originally Posted by Sidewinder

Timmy, some of us are old enough to remember 1993.

Some of us are old enough to remember the whole 1993 Waco debacle.

You clearly are not.

Koresh's firearms work was, as far as anyone knew at that moment, done strictly inside the letter and spirit of the law.

The allegations of child abuse were unsupported by ANY evidence whatsoever. They were made solely to get the state of Texas to loan helicopters to the assault.

If the Feds had wanted to arrest Koresh, all they had to do was wait, out of sight, until he went out in one of his routine jogging runs. He routinely jogged alone, outdoors. (Source: the Waco sheriff, in the press, at the time.)

As for walking out the door with his hands up, get real: The BATFinks showed up, WITH AN ARMY!, and, instead of knocking at the door, just immediately started shooting. At that point, NOBODY in anything even remotely resembling his right mind is going to walk out the door, with his hands up or down, empty or full of a weapon.

Once the siege was laid, Koresh believed, apparently with justification, that the government's intent was to kill him and everyone there. (Ask why the fire trucks were held back, over a mile from the house, when the final conflagration started.)

Being a fucking nut is not supposed to be a capital crime in this country.

Sorry, but you're a liar. Koresh was in possession of dozens of automatic weapons without the necessary license required by the NFA. He was in violation of federal firearms law and the only evidence anybody needs to confirm that is the news coverage video of the ATF raid on the compound showing the hundreds of rounds of automatic rifle fire coming out of the compound during the ATF's attempt to serve it's lawfully issued search and arrest warrants.

The ATF showed up at the compound to enforce federal law and the only thing that needed to be done in order to avoid a conflict was for Koresh to surrender and assert whatever legal rights he thought he might have in a court of law...same as every other US citizen. If he had done that, the whole thing would have been over...but for him going to prison...Instead, he and his followers opened up on federal law enforcement agents with automatic weapons, killing and wounding a dozen or so.

After that, Koresh refused to surrender himself to legal authorities, instead choosing to endanger the lives of the men, women and children that he was in control of in the compound. He could have walked out of that compound anytime....and spared the lives of all of those people. Instead, he acted like the fucking psycho drama queen he was....and he got all those people killed. The whole thing could have been avoided if Koresh hadn't been a complete psycho.

None of this even addresses the issue of Koresh fucking the little girls that were part of his cult. He was a fucking piece of shit. You take his side if you like....

[gnadfly]

These Hobby Lobbys are bullshit. I keep standing there waiting for a Latina Lineup but nobody buzzes me in!

[i'va biggen]

Try cash...

[Chica Chaser]

Originally Posted by gnadfly

These Hobby Lobbys are bullshit. I keep standing there waiting for a Latina Lineup but nobody buzzes me in!

[Guest050715-1]

Hobby Lobby and no employer, other than a church, has the right to deny health care coverage to Americans. I don't believe in extensive end of life care. Does that mean as an employer, I have the right to deny health care coverage for it? No, it doesn't. Hobby Lobby's religious ideals stop and start with the owner and the employees should not be forced to give up a portion of their health care because of some outdated idea that fanatics use to link contraception to religion when what they mean to say / do is control women if they are sluts enough or wanton enough to want to have sex by forcing them to have unwanted children.

[CuteOldGuy]

Private companies offer benefits to employees to obtain and retain good ones. Whether or not they offer benefits should be up to the company.

Hobby Lobby is a private company. They should be able to choose what benefits they offer to their employees. If the employees don't like what is offered, they can purchase supplemental insurance, or change jobs.

[Guest050715-1]

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

Private companies offer benefits to employees to obtain and retain good ones. Whether or not they offer benefits should be up to the company.

Hobby Lobby is a private company. They should be able to choose what benefits they offer to their employees. If the employees don't like what is offered, they can purchase supplemental insurance, or change jobs.

I disagree. They should not be aLowed to disregard the reproductive health of one sex. It's discrimiation.

[CuteOldGuy]

And my point is, it's a private company. They shouldn't be required to offer benefits at all. Typically, they do, because it helps attract and retain good employees. But the decision of what to offer belongs to the company, not to the government. Or at least that's the way it should be.

I respectfully disagree, Olivia. Sorry.

[Guest050715-1]

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

And my point is, it's a private company. They shouldn't be required to offer benefits at all. Typically, they do, because it helps attract and retain good employees. But the decision of what to offer belongs to the company, not to the government. Or at least that's the way it should be.

I respectfully disagree, Olivia. Sorry.

I agree, they don't have to offer bennies. However, if they do offer health care insurance, then it is not right to offer coverage for the entirety of men's reproductive care and not women. It's discrimination.

Besides, we all know people working for Hobby Lobby aren't really in the position to vote with their feet and quit their jobs and go look elsewhere for employment.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

Private companies offer benefits to employees to obtain and retain good ones. Whether or not they offer benefits should be up to the company.

Hobby Lobby is a private company. They should be able to choose what benefits they offer to their employees. If the employees don't like what is offered, they can purchase supplemental insurance, or change jobs.

You're right COG, they should be allowed to deny gays insurance and black folk and women for that matter.

[Chica Chaser]

Or part-timers