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Semantics get in the way of discussion. Much of what Zany says is true. There are a great many abuses in our system. The rich are getting richer, primarily because they own the politicians who ostensibly "run" the government. The poor are getting poorer, and the middle class is getting crushed. It's much more difficult to break through and move up in the world. Barriers to entry for entrepreneurs are getting higher and higher. Education requirements for many professionals are increasing, while less is being learned throughout the educational system.
This will not go on indefinitely. It will end. And it won't be pretty. Zany (when he's not spouting Obamacrap), See, and Debbie are exposing some serious problems. You may disagree with their solutions, but the problems are real. Ignore them if you want, but they aren't going away.
I have an idea! Let's work together to solve them!
While socialists falsely "claim" they are raising the standard of living for all, they actually lower the standard of living for the majority.
Sorry, but you are wrong in my opinion. The rich, or should I say, the corporate powers that be, are indulging themselves to the detriment of the whole. This is not fair, it is not just, and it's not a good thing.
Socialism is immoral because it denies people freedom......capitalism is moral because it gives people freedom.....lazy and stupid people would disagree with me because they want to steal from the smart and hard working.....
You must have born rich. . .what about the rest of us???
You must have born rich. . .what about the rest of us???
Well I wasn't born rich. we weren't poor either. My father was a school teacher and later became Principal of a school in a small township. When I reached High School he even ran for a public office, which he held for eight years. I've met many people who came to America from countries that are primarily socialist. Although their lives in their native country weren't terrible they prefer our way of Government and economic structure. The common denominator they all have seemed to share with me is the sense of freedom and liberties we enjoy. They all love this country for those reasons. I think those that desire America to be more of a Socialist country need to be careful what they wish for. I'll take my chances on Capitalism, the constitution and all that goes with it until something is proven better.
Semantics get in the way of discussion. Much of what Zany says is true. There are a great many abuses in our system. The rich are getting richer, primarily because they own the politicians who ostensibly "run" the government. The poor are getting poorer, and the middle class is getting crushed. It's much more difficult to break through and move up in the world. Barriers to entry for entrepreneurs are getting higher and higher. Education requirements for many professionals are increasing, while less is being learned throughout the educational system.
This will not go on indefinitely. It will end. And it won't be pretty. Zany (when he's not spouting Obamacrap), See, and Debbie are exposing some serious problems. You may disagree with their solutions, but the problems are real. Ignore them if you want, but they aren't going away.
I have an idea! Let's work together to solve them!
Thanks "CuteOldGuy". . .want to run for President???
The motto is "the people rule" and no amount of money can tell us otherwise
Well I wasn't born rich. we weren't poor either. My father was a school teacher and later became Principal of a school in a small township. When I reached High School he even ran for a public office, which he held for eight years. I've met many people who came to America from countries that are primarily socialist. Although their lives in their native country weren't terrible they prefer our way of Government and economic structure. The common denominator they all have seemed to share with me is the sense of freedom and liberties we enjoy. They all love this country for those reasons. I think those that desire America to be more of a Socialist country need to be careful what they wish for. I'll take my chances on Capitalism, the constitution and all that goes with it until something is proven better.
I'm talking a hybrid system that rewards and also punishes those who don't want to work and leech of others. Help come up with a solution and talk through the scenarios boardman or get lost. All the silly bickering and complaining means nothing. Help be part of the solution and the solution is NOT traditional capitalism we've seen what that's done to this country to date.
What are your bi-partisan solutions?
Lets take apart what you write here and I will show you that you are nothing but a troll.
You mentioned socialism. We know that it doesn't work so you change the parameter to a "hybrid system". So which is it? Socialism of this hybrid system that only you know of? You have no idea or you would not be demanding that the reader come up with your system. You have nothing! I'll jump ahead a little bit about your use of the word "bipartisan". Once again, it shows that you have nothing. Bipartisan? Why not tripartisan or four, five, or six different positions. You're stuck thinking that this is the only kind of system.
A system that rewards work and punishes leeches.... that's called capitalism. Socialism (yes, it is an economic system if that make you feel intelligent) is a system the says everyone has an equal claim on the fruits of their labor collectively. So if someone doesn't want to work, or doesn't want to work enough, or just wants to goof off how do you deny them something that the system promises that they have claim to? If you take away that then there goes your socialism and we're back to capitalism. Now I don't think you, or Deb, can't tell the difference between crony capitalism, cut throat capitalism, or modern capitalism. Even the conservatives recognize that government has a function (I know, there are idiots who like to claim that conservatives don't want government. Those are actually called anarchists which is a left wing philosophy) and that function is to protect the rights of the citizenry and part of that is to maintain the law that governs capitalism. Namely, fair play, truth in advertising, transparency, and protecting the innocent from predatory practices. Crony capitalism is what we are seeing now. Businesses are using the government to reward themselves and abuse their competition. Take the minimum wage. A large company can better survive having to raise wages than a small mom and pop. Mom and pop go away so a big box store can make more money. Or a regulation. The EPA can pass some new pollution standard for Iowa that does not affect California.
You'd be better off working to set rules that are fair for everyone and embracing capitalism. Take it from a liberal:
Well if our way of Government is wrong and unjust why are so many people from other countries lining up at the door to become American citizens? Like I said I've met several people that have come to America from other countries, Iraq, Russia, South America, Canada, Southern Europe. They all grew up in their native countries and came here as teenagers so they know the difference. They love this country for all the right reasons, because they feel they have a sense of freedom to make their own choices and map out their lives the way they feel fit without any intervention from the Government or any entity there of. I asked one guy from the small country of Albania about their Healthcare system. He said everything is free, but not of high quality. He also stated something interesting you can't sue anybody in the Healthcare system and don't even think about making complaints on the police like we do here. All Governmental systems have their flaws ours included. Maybe Socialism has some attractive aspects over our Capitalism but we are still very lucky because we have a constitution, a Bill Of Rights and Due Process. I think everyone's main gripe about Capitalism is Corporate Greed, Rich People, Poor People. Keeping my freedom and liberties trumps all that.
Semantics get in the way of discussion. Much of what Zany says is true. There are a great many abuses in our system. The rich are getting richer, primarily because they own the politicians who ostensibly "run" the government. The poor are getting poorer, and the middle class is getting crushed. It's much more difficult to break through and move up in the world. Barriers to entry for entrepreneurs are getting higher and higher. Education requirements for many professionals are increasing, while less is being learned throughout the educational system.
This will not go on indefinitely. It will end. And it won't be pretty. Zany (when he's not spouting Obamacrap), See, and Debbie are exposing some serious problems. You may disagree with their solutions, but the problems are real. Ignore them if you want, but they aren't going away.
I have an idea! Let's work together to solve them!
Your way of working with those of which you agree is not palatable. Therefore this country's fate is sealed because of you, not despite your efforts. But keep thinking you are the solution and not the problem
Sorry, but you are wrong in my opinion. The rich, or should I say, the corporate powers that be, are indulging themselves to the detriment of the whole. This is not fair, it is not just, and it's not a good thing.
That's my two cents! (Even with my bra off).:grin:
It's Noam Chomsky and socialism that are wrong. In a socialist system the disparaged "rich" are replaced with politicos, and the average citizen's concern for the latest in fashionable Air Jordans from Nike is replaced with a real concern for whether or not there will still be bread on the store shelf when you finally get in. Socialism at work:
"Socialists perform amazing miracles. They steal hundreds of fresh loaves and fishes, and redistribute but a few moldy crusts and rotten heads. Their miracle of scarcity is genuine, you see, and the socialists have no idea how they achieve this miracle. It baffles them. It angers them. It outrages them. Yet, it does not discourage them." - Sipos
. In a socialist system the disparaged "rich" are replaced with politicos, and the average citizen's concern for the latest in fashionable Air Jordans from Nike is replaced with a real concern for whether or not there will still be bread on the store shelf when you finally get in. Socialism at work:
]
That sounds like a reason to go Commie if it would get rid of the Air Jordans and the idiots that buy them!
Boardman. I had a fantastic lunch and nap afterwards. Below you'll find your previous feedback in red and my rebuttal in green. I responded to what I thought needed an immediate response I'm sure I've answered your other questions somewhere in there as well.
· A true Capitalist recognizes that resources are finite and works just as hard to replace what he uses because he knows it means sustainability – This is a flat out and out misrepresentation of the truth and antiquated view of reality. Recent history of how Bush and his administration wrecked the economy is prime example. True Capitalists only recognize that resources are finite once the damage has already been done. Thus the rise of the Tea Party after but not before the crash of 2008. Capitalism (as the sole economic system) at its roots is an unsustainable system that gives the façade of material prosperity until the bubble bursts. There will always be the destructive social undercurrent that is shielded from view until the shit hits the fan.
· How do you put anything into the collective hands of the people. By giving government control of the resources and production then letting them take their cut off of the top. Wouldn't that make government capitalists. – My question to you and all the Tea Party enthusiasts is what is government? There is a fundamental fact of government that you guys have lost track of and that is that government is the governing body of a nation, state, or community. In other words its of the people, for the people, and by the people. That can be controlled by corporate interests. Even the Tea party candidates you propose are of the “government” because they were elected into office. So when you say “give the government control” keep in mind you are really saying “give the people control for the most part.” (or those being paid off by corporate interests) I'm always flabbergasted by how you guys miss that simple concept. If the people you vote are skimming off the top vote them out and replace them with another set of people you trust. The bottom line is if there is no government then Capitalism or any other form of economic systems cannot take root in any society. So to answer your question YES the government is Capitalists but it is also Socialist to some degree and should be.
No, it creates an entitled portion of society from those who think that they deserve something they didn't work for. I hear this often it is a fair point but a fairly outdated view especially if you considered the potential hybrid- socialist / capitalist approach which I mentioned from the outset. The system is created for those contributing to the system if there is no conformance then there is no benefit to the lazy. It is as simple as that. However, we have to do something to combat the scourge of Capitalism and your next point opened the door for me.
Socialism creates wage slavery by letting the government determine what is fair rather than letting free markets set the wage. The most productive worker should get the highest pay, No? Again if the government is deciding then they should be deciding what the people want. Not what big companies pay them to decide. You speak of free markets. LOL do you have any idea of how Capitalists wreck free markets? Do you really? Capitalism fuels global depression because it causes over consumption (individually and collectively) based on Corporate greed. While there is some good about Capitalism (and I am personally benefiting from it) by and large I see it as a mostly negative system. Everything is based on fear of losing everything (i.e your job, house, family 401K, etc) and falling into poverty and relying on help from a government (by and large) being run by the same Capitalists who created the system or paying off representatives. (Eric Cantors new job is a good example)
People really are slaves in Capitalism even the ones we want to call somewhat successful and live the good life. In some cases you get a livable wage but the efficiency and productivity improvements go primarily to the benefit of the Capitalists in charge. Look at all the bonuses paid to CEO’s. Do you really believe it’s because they’re smarter or work harder than the masses. If so you’re an IDIOT plain and simple. Some of the masses are even more educated than the CEO’s but in many cases it goes back to ties to entities that can lobby on behalf of their interests.
It doesn’t matter how hard people work it’s all form of multi-level marketing and at the end of the day the capitalists win and the workers the wage earners lose. I don’t care if you’re making 25k /yr or 180k/yr its peanut shells compared to the greedy Capitalists. The other thing to consider is most of these capitalists did not work for their wealth it was handed down and all they do is continue the cycle of exploiting their hardest and most productive workers. What makes this system even crueler is that Corporations can literally be some of the most profitable in the world due to their workers production and they still find ways (surpassing market demand) to outsource and lay workers off.
· In short a capitalist believes that 1000 merchants competing for the same dollar is much better than one company telling us what we are going to pay. LOL – you my friend don’t quite understand what’s going on out here. It’s a shell game it’s all a façade like I mentioned before. One company IS “basically” telling us what we’re going to pay directly and indirectly.
Consider this for the Capitalist based on my explanation above. The last sentence below is important:
Just 1 percent of the world's population controls nearly half of the planet's wealth, according to a new study published by Oxfam ahead of the World Economic Forum's annual meeting.
The study says this tiny slice of humanity controls $110 trillion, or 65 times the total wealth of the poorest 3.5 billion people.
Other key findings in the report:
— The world's 85 richest people own as much as the poorest 50 percent of humanity.
— 70 percent of the world's people live in a country where income inequality has increased in the past three decades.
— In the U.S., where the gap between rich and poor has grown at a faster rate than any other developed country, the top 1 percent captured 95 percent of post-recession growth (since 2009), while 90 percent of Americans became poorer.
"Oxfam is concerned that, left unchecked, the effects are potentially immutable, and will lead to 'opportunity capture' — in which the lowest tax rates, the best education, and the best healthcare are claimed by the children of the rich," the relief agency writes. "This creates dynamic and mutually reinforcing cycles of advantage that are transmitted across generations."
In other words, Oxfam says that if trends continue, the rich will get richer and the poor will get poorer.
"[People] are increasingly separated by economic and political power, inevitably heightening social tensions and increasing the risk of societal breakdown," the report says.
You are incorrectly blaming capitalism for creating corrupt government. On the contrary government corrupts capitalism just the same way as it corrupt socialism. In a true capitalist society government would take a position of positive non-intervention and support Laissez faire economics. Hong Kong is probably the best example of how this works but even the Hong Kong government controls capitalism by not allowing the owning of property and therefore setting the rate that companies pay to establish and do business there. Even the communist/socialist Chinese are learning from this model and aren't fucking with Hong Kong's economy that much since they took over. In fact China is become more and more Capitalists because of the success of capitalism in Hong Kong.
The common theme in this debate is that government corrupts whatever economic system is in place.
True Capitalists would seek to limit government, True Socialists would seek to strengthen government.
Socialism creates a floor and a ceiling
Capitalism takes both away.
Capitalism depends on charity for those who fail by those who succeed. It allows society to determine whether a person deserves it.
Socialism depents on government to protect those who fail by taking from those who succeed. It no longer allows society to determine who actually needs protection and who is gaming the system.
