Fracking

[ElisabethWhispers]

And I was SO hoping that "fracking" WAS a new sexual term that I hadn't heard before. Sigh. I so like those "f" words!

Elisabeth

[Rodram]

Originally Posted by ElisabethWhispers

And I was SO hoping that "fracking" WAS a new sexual term that I hadn't heard before. Sigh. I so like those "f" words!

Elisabeth

Sorry Elizabeth but it does have that sexual/dominate sounding thing doesn't it? LOL

[Guest083013]

This wonderful woman spells her name with a "s" please.

[Rodram]

Rakhir, first let me thank you for all the insight this is a great perspective to consider. Quickly, who subsidized and commissioned the A&M project you refer too? I would suspect that it is Texas oil and that automatically raises a red flag for conflict of interest in respects to our conversation.

Now on the first question you pose:
"Out of curiosity though exactly where and how do you propose to capture and generated energy to meet the needs of this nation? Wind? A nice supplement but will never replace the fossil fuel carbon chain energy ratio. Nuclear? I personally am all for it but in comparison to wind yet again if you closed down the South Texas Project you'd have to pave over Rhode Island with windmills to equal the reactors output and you couldn't depend upon it to generate 360 out of the year."

-These alternatives are definitely not the panacea for addressing the nations energy needs and that is stated often when criticism is leveled against fossil fuels by credible opponents, however, the need to move away from fossil fuels is now ever so evident due to its negative impact on our economy(BP), the environment(BP), and our concerns for diplomatic relations globally(middle east). Moving away from fossil fuels will be incremental and hopefully exponential as the technology for alternative energy sources advances.

Now to your second point:
"I am at a loss over the sudden manufactured concern over this new process. Especially since it seems to be the same cast of characters objecting to the retrieval of energy. (Please don't think I am lumping you in with them in this statement. I don't know you all that well but I am enjoying the conversation)"

-No worries rakhir I am absolutely ecstatic over being able to have a conversation with people directly involved like yourself,oshins and others whom have an informed opinion on this issue. I realize how the rapidly evolving criticism and subsequent data and research being leveled against fracking and fossil fuels can be misconstrued as a leftist agenda(I am a gun loving, 2nd amendment fighting, 4wd driving card carrying Texas Liberal so let me get that disclosure out now and there are lots of us here!LOL!) but the reality is the BP disaster, Japans Fukushima disaster, and currently what Big Oil/Wall Street is doing economically to middle class America has this country on a fast track away from its dependence on them. Lets face facts here, economically speaking for Big Oil to rake in billions and set a record for being the most profitable industry in the history of the world in a downturned economy and then to completely ignore and deny the social/moral and economic imperative that goes with great power and wealth to the citizens of this great country is absolutely outrageous and probably criminal. Add also this new campaign from Exxon to inundate the airwaves with responsible community pillar type commercials targeted to bamboozle people into embracing them and natural gas without concern not only inflames Liberals(they probably love that) but it gives opponents ample ammunition analogous to shooting fish in a barrel.
Small note to EXXON: PAY YOUR FUCKING TAXES AND QUITE ASKING FOR CORPORATE WELFARE(GOVT SUBSIDIES) ASSHOLES !!!

Your third point:
"For years I have listened to the left anti drilling lobby complaining but never offering any real world solutions. Oh and the "leases have been given but the companies won't drill them" argument doesn't work for me either. The Destin Dome project off of the coast of Florida is a huge dry natural gas strike drilled by Cheveron in the 90's. To date they have never been able to produce off of it because of the usual nonsense. Here is merely one article concerning this:http://www.offshore-mag.com/index/ar...e-project.html."

- I am not aware and can't comment on the Destin Dome project but I will read the article and get back to you if I have anything to add and thank you for pointing it out.

Your fourth point:
"Consider putting out the investment to explore, drill, and create infrastructure only to be told you can't produce to recapture that massive investment! This is only one example of many I can produce to make my point. Then, when someone comes up with a work around such as fraking to generate new yield form existing well heads suddenly there is a cry such as yours to deal with. I have yet to see any verifiable examples of such a danger from any credible source"

-All I can say about the investment is that the nature of investing is risk and you should understand that as you refer to it often. What you fail to recognize is that the risk you point out is a risk that you want the country to take and somehow that is less than your investment risk. This is a perfect example of Conservatism and Capitalism run amok and why it has to be reigned in.
As far as credible sources are concerned I and oshines have cited many and there are many others available. Credibility is the liability of your industry right now as I have demonstrated.

The rest of your comment has been addressed by oshines and it is also my position. Rakhir, you are right now a minority in respect to your position and advocacy for your industry because you point out feasible and somewhat reasonable considerations and would lead Liberals like myself and many Americans to lend you credibility and perhaps collaboration that would satisfy both sides and produce a profitable and responsible outcome but unfortunately, your industry does not follow suit.

Do you have an opinion or any insight to Obamas new drilling initiative? Your insight on this would be appreciated and thanks again rakhir!

[Rodram]

Originally Posted by dennisrn

This wonderful woman spells her name with a "s" please.

I'm sorry for the misspelling Elisabeth.

dennisrn, were you a court jester in your past life?

[Rodram]

CRAP! I forgot to address your windmill point.
With all due respect rakhir you're comparing a blade malfunction on a windmill to a nuclear disaster?!? These wind powered generators are monstrous as are their blades but considering that we have the engineering available that allows the rotorblades on a helicopter or props on a plane to operate under enormous centrifugal force, I doubt that the blades on these windmills would be any problem that has not been addressed efficiently.
These enormous devices are in rural, isolated areas and with exception to those that maintain them, I doubt that blade malfunctions are of concern to the population or the environment. I am aware of some concern over bird migration paths but Im not up on what has been addressed.

[ElisabethWhispers]

Originally Posted by Rodram

I'm sorry for the misspelling Elisabeth.

dennisrn, were you a court jester in your past life?

It's completely fine and don't worry about a thing. dennisrn is a buddy from way back. Smile.

As far as YOU go, though, I might be getting a small girl crush. I'm reading this topic and not understanding a word!!! Do you know how HOT that is for me?

I'm just FRACKING!!!!!

(Sorry for the slight thread drift!)

Elisabeth

Edited to add: Oh crap. I believe that you and dennisrn don't really get along after reading a few other posts in San Antonio. He's a nice man and not a court jester although if he were, he would be cute. I'll go away and hide now! hugs ...

[Mokoa]

Originally Posted by Rodram

dennisrn, were you a court jester in your past life?

Just how is that rude comment germane to the topic of this thread?

[Rodram]

Originally Posted by ElisabethWhispers

It's completely fine and don't worry about a thing. dennisrn is a buddy from way back. Smile.

As far as YOU go, though, I might be getting a small girl crush. I'm reading this topic and not understanding a word!!! Do you know how HOT that is for me?

I'm just FRACKING!!!!!

(Sorry for the slight thread drift!)

Elisabeth

Edited to add: Oh crap. I believe that you and dennisrn don't really get along after reading a few other posts in San Antonio. He's a nice man and not a court jester although if he were, he would be cute. I'll go away and hide now! hugs ...

LOL! I believe you when you say that dennisrn is a nice guy and not a court justice. The rhetoric that often transpires between me and him and others is sometimes over the top, which I have been guilty of, so no worries Elisabeth. Don't go away and hide, please weigh in anytime you want, I'm sure we all will appreciate it! Thanks-Rod

[Rodram]

Originally Posted by Mokoa

Just how is that rude comment germane to the topic of this thread?

It's not, its just a small rhetorical flourish perhaps? No? Ok, you're right.

[Rakhir]

The study I spoke of earlier was commissioned by the company I am an investor/board member of. We started this about 4 years ago and it took about 2 years for the results to come in and based upon those results and the economic feasibility studies we moved ahead to where we are today. It was important to have independent confirmation of our business plan and we felt it important to use a Texas based university well versed in environmental, agriculture and mineral management.

Next I used the blade falling off as an analogy of chaos theory or entropy. It doesn't matter what it is use it long enough something will fail. It is a fact of life. The BP spill while horrendous still isn't really anything more than a statistical anomaly when you factor in the entire history of drilling worldwide. Planes crash and you still fly. Cars do the same and you still drive. And both these examples happen much more frequently in proportion to the history and overall numbers of operation. Yet people seem to handle those risks quite well.

As for the new drilling policy by the Obama admin I can honestly say I don't understand it well enough to make intelligent comment. I have read many conflicting reports from the same sources many of which occur in the same outlets.

I would offer you read the following at your leisure and give me your thoughts. I know this is more of an overview but it does make sound energy/economic/environmental policy.http://heritage.org/Research/Reports...onmental-Needs

Oh and one last thing I hope everyone here understands. Who is big oil? Really now! The oil companies like Exxon, BP and Shell are not one or two rich individuals in a cabal to fuck everyone over. Yes there have been some abuses and I'm sure some examples can be shown but in the large scheme of things if you have a mutual fund, pension or annuity YOU ARE BIG OIL! Yes I said it! There isn't any sort of retirement investment out there that doesn't have some sort of involvement or exposure to oil. And if you want to screw yourselves then keep praying for the oil companies to fail.

I recently had this conversation with friends of my sister who are teachers here in town. They were railing over the BP spill and making accusations about those responsible should be shot. Well on the surface its easy to agree with them. Then I pointed out their pensions are heavily vested in oil here in the TSTA. Nearly 60%! Then I showed them that of that about 15% was with BP alone. So every time they failed to vote a proxy representative ( you know those little slips you get in the mail from time to time to vote members of the board important positions by proxy vote ) they threw them away. This made them responsible as well because they didn't take the time to use their votes to empower responsible persons to oversee their investments. Of course they were angry with me because I just showed them their naiveté and irresponsible behavior. And as such they were hypocrites since they now had some measure of responsibility as well.

I didn't do this to castigate but merely to inform. I took no pleasure in this but I really am tired of educated being so misinformed!

Never the less I really am enjoying this thread. Can't remember the last time I got to read and participate in such interesting conversation here.

[Rodram]

Thanks for clarifying the A&M study for me and I retract my suspicion and pull down the red flag! Actually, this is a perfect lead in to another point that I wanted to make because it blurs the line in our debate here and it is an important distinction to make.

When I refer to Big Oil it is not you or your investment interests that I am referring to. You have obviously displayed a sense of community by investing or participating in our public education system and acknowledged your environmental/economic responsibilities, but you are not the corporate monoliths that are the Big 5. This distinction is important because you and I are having this debate on a different and higher level of truth and responsibility as Americans and this goes to the social/economic imperative I was referring to in my previous comment. Those we are debating about do not have any sense of allegiance or responsibility to this country because greed rules the day for them and therein lies the difficulty. I only wish we had guys like you up there representing the Big 5 because trust would definitely be reestablished.

Here is a quote from Chevron CEO John Watson of which Exxon CEO Rex Tiller echoes throughout the US Senate Finance Committee hearing concerning tax incentives:
“Don't punish our industry for doing its job well,” Watson said. “Create energy and tax policies that make our country a more attractive place to do business.”

This is nothing more than a veiled threat and the alternative is what if I may ask? The alternative is taking their business to another country and continue to screw the American people all the while economically boosting the economy of another country and oh, make more obscene amounts of money of course. How bout' them Patriotic Americans for ya'? Don't it make ya' proud?

No, the Big Five(ExxonMobil,Chevron,BP,Roy al Dutch Shell and ConocoPhillips) are not a couple of guys in a cabal to destroy America and you're right about that, except of course the Citizens United ruling that now says they are and I'll elaborate soon on that because it is a devastating shot to our democracy. But they are a 5 headed giant that has made an unbelievable 35 billion dollars in just the first quarter of this year in a bad economy. They are out of control and need to have the hammer dropped on them.

The Big 5 are receiving govt subsidies in the billions and screwing us out of taxes in the billions and costing us billions environmentally, some of which a dollar figure cannot be assigned by the way and is on course to making, again, 35 billion dollars every 3 fucking months!

The current meme fostered by API(American Petroleum Institute) is the most preposterous and ridiculous argument I’ve ever heard to justify subsidies for an industry and give them additional welfare. If pension funds also hold Microsoft or Intel stocks does that mean the government should turn around and subsidize Microsoft or Intel to boost the pension funds? It’s really a preposterous sort of proposal, it makes no sense from a public policy standpoint. The mutual fund companies are tasked to invest monies wisely and are not especially linked to the Big 5 so much that we would suffer a significant loss if any, if they made less.

So, am I advocating for the end of the Big 5?!? No, because the economy would be devastated if they all just went away. The oil industry gives huge amounts to colleges, community initiatives, research and development that benefits us directly, and jobs and millions of them, approximately 5.8 million to be exact.
I am however advocating for the Big 5 to be reigned in under reasonable and fair taxation and to the end of govt welfare because the Big 5 don't need it. We as a nation are suffering economically partly because of the Big 5 and the American thing to do would be to get their damn hands out of our pockets.

rakhir I couldn't come to see your chaos analogy and give you the whole windmill thingy cuz' that was too much of a stretch. It just had no juice man, sorry about that one!

I receive email alerts from the Heritage Foundation and to those of you that are interested they give out free pocket constitutions(But beware these guys are conservatives so take what they say with a huge grain of salt) and so does the ACLU(And these guys are my boys so they are commie leftist! LOL!) and I recommend everyone sign up for one. I carry mine with me all the time in my backpack.

I'm sure I've read that Heritage article rakhir, but I'll check anyway. Thanks.

[Guest121514]

Originally Posted by oshins

Fracturing a formation under an aquifer used for drinking water is a recipe for long term contamination... and not at all easy to remediate. Think about trying to get contaminants out of a formation like the Edwards aquifer. That would be a herculean task, and monumentally expensive.
The problem with fracking as I see it is primarily that is endangers our fresh water supply. Is any amount of natural gas worth ruining the only fresh water resource that the entire city of San Antonio use?
To me the obvious answer is no.

The Eagle Ford lies stratigraphically above the Edwards and Glen Rose limestone formations. Water found in the Edwards, below the Eagle Ford play, is brine. FYI.

[Rakhir]

What I am trying to say in my chaos theory statement is everything eventually fails. No matter what the endeavor, how well engineered, planned or whatever it will eventually fail and cost a life or lives. This is also true of nature! Solar will eventually fail as well but then again we won't be around to know it other than that brief flash when the sun goes nova. LOL!
So what is the acceptable potential risk vs rewards? That is up to the individual to decide. Its the over reaction to the statistically irrelevant that basically pisses me off anymore. In a country of 300 million plus one person dies in some freak statical anomaly in any industry and suddenly we have to legislate and fuck it up for everyone else. (I know I went off on a bit of a tangent here so please bear with me)

But getting back to the meat of the matter. Your analogy of Microsoft doesn't hold up for me as they should never have been the victims of the anti trust law suit. Microsoft's business practices never met the definition of what anti trust is and to this day I have to thank Janet Reno and here office for saving me $30 on my copy of the Windows OS but costing me tens of thousands in my investment accounts and many others as well. This was merely a power grab to extort money out of Microsoft!

But once again I digress from the energy question and I didn't mean to do that. There is no simple solution but neither is vilification of an industry that employs, feeds and drives an entire economy one either. Not to mention without it we would still be at substance level farming and life spans would have leveled off at about the age of 50. We enjoy an amazing quality of life due to the carbon chain molecule.

If you want to talk economic theory, taxation and regulation/governing of such that is another discussion for another thread/time.

[Rodram]

rakhir, I think we and others have had a good debate and hopefully we've helped someone with their opinion on this Fracking issue. I support your investment and your investors and I wish you the best of luck!