New Article on George Floyd Death

[The_Waco_Kid]

Originally Posted by Kinkster90210

Blaming the victim? That's not an "answer" to anything, shithead.

You do know that cops cannot kill guilty people either, right? I don't care if they had video of Floyd committing a robbery and then injecting heroin right after.

The police are supposed to arrest him and bring him to a hospital to prevent him from ODing. Then bring him to jail once his health if protected.

It called "the rule of law". You might have heard of it. You are allegedly a conservative.

In rule of law nations, we don't allow macho cowboy cops to execute suspects on the sidewalk.

Georgie was no victim. they didn't execute him. you make it sound like they pulled their weapons and got their gun off on him. you know that didn't happen. from what is known now those cops shoulda left him in his car to od then called the coroner to take him to the morgue. then he'd still be the nobody he still is ..

[HedonistForever]

Originally Posted by Kinkster90210

If he doesn't get convicted, there will be worse riots than Rodney King - nationwide.

That idiot cop gave the left the excuse they need to start violence.

Can you honestly tell me there was ANY legitimate reason to kneel on Floyd's neck for 8 minutes?

Remember Floyd's hand were CUFFED BEHIND HIS BACK when Chauvin was kneeling on him. So Floyd was NOT a threat to any of the cops.

If that idiot cop had just sat him up on the street or sat him up in the cop car, we wouldn't be in this situation. If he died while sitting in the cop car, it would be acceptable to people that he died from a hear attack brought on by drug use.

But Chauvin had a callous disregard for human life. Even if it is true that Floyd was on drugs, that STILL does NOT give Chauvin any cause to kneel on the guy's neck. Especially when he is saying he is having trouble breathing.

If Chauvin did that to any member of my family, I would want him in jail. How about you?

You obviously haven't watched the recently released video posted in this thread I believe. The reason Floyd was on the ground is because he refused to sit in the cop car. He resisted being put in the cop car. That is why he ended up on the ground. If Floyd hadn't been so hopped up on very serious drugs, he would be sitting in the back of that cop car and in jail today. WATCH THE VIDEO and no the video does not in and of itself justify his death.



Yes, Chauvin did seem to have a callous disregard for Floyd's well being and the fact that other officers suggested doing something different speaks to that fact but the facts are, as I understand them, a knee to the neck was not forbidden and a knee to the neck was not the primary cause of death as the coroners report says.


There is something in the law about apportionment of blame called "contributory negligence". This is used in corporate law talking about product liability but I believe it is useful in criminal law to.


https://corporate.findlaw.com/litiga...liability.html



Did Floyd contribute, by his actions to his death? I don't think there is any question but that he did but to what degree? Would a knee to the neck of a man not on the drugs Floyd was on have died? What degree should be assigned to the cop and was there intent to murder. Short of saying "I'm going to kill you", I don't see how we can say the cop intended to kill Floyd. For me, that takes murder off the table.


For me, if Floyds contribution to his own death is above 51% and I believe it was, that also removes murder from the table.


Callous disregard for well being could certainly be made but callous disregard for human life, meaning Chauvin intended to kill could not be proven knowing what I know now.


So yeah, Chauvin gets jail time but sure as hell not for murder.


And if he was my relative, I'd probably be saying "with his history of drug use and criminal behavior, it was only a matter of time before he would meet his early end". I know, I had a sister who could not beat a drug habit. She had several run-ins with police and once got pretty bruised up trying to resist a cop trying to put cuffs on her after a DUI stop. I tried for years to get her help taking her to AA meetings, paying all her bills. She stole from me and one day took off with as much cash as she could get from my wallet and died two years later of organ failure from alcohol and drugs.


What did I say? I said I knew it would end that way. Whether Floyd's relatives want to admit it or not, they had to know the possibility that his drug use would kill him one way or the other.



It sure as hell contributed to his death.

[oeb11]

i am no lawyer - HF - You do make some interesting points . How corporate law affects the process of a criminal murder prosecution is beyond me. Interesting issues are being raised.

I do think it will be an interesting trial - and regardless of verdict - the radicals with no police department operative in Minneapolis (unless a change of venue is granted) will go full bore riot on the city's residents.

Perhaps the addresses of the City Council members should be posted around the city the day of he verdict.

[Kinkster90210]

Originally Posted by HedonistForever

You obviously haven't watched the recently released video posted in this thread I believe. The reason Floyd was on the ground is because he refused to sit in the cop car. He resisted being put in the cop car. That is why he ended up on the ground. If Floyd hadn't been so hopped up on very serious drugs, he would be sitting in the back of that cop car and in jail today. WATCH THE VIDEO and no the video does not in and of itself justify his death.

Yes, Chauvin did seem to have a callous disregard for Floyd's well being and the fact that other officers suggested doing something different speaks to that fact but the facts are, as I understand them, a knee to the neck was not forbidden and a knee to the neck was not the primary cause of death as the coroners report says.

There is something in the law about apportionment of blame called "contributory negligence". This is used in corporate law talking about product liability but I believe it is useful in criminal law to.

https://corporate.findlaw.com/litiga...liability.html

Did Floyd contribute, by his actions to his death? I don't think there is any question but that he did but to what degree? Would a knee to the neck of a man not on the drugs Floyd was on have died? What degree should be assigned to the cop and was there intent to murder. Short of saying "I'm going to kill you", I don't see how we can say the cop intended to kill Floyd. For me, that takes murder off the table.

For me, if Floyds contribution to his own death is above 51% and I believe it was, that also removes murder from the table.

Callous disregard for well being could certainly be made but callous disregard for human life, meaning Chauvin intended to kill could not be proven knowing what I know now.

So yeah, Chauvin gets jail time but sure as hell not for murder.

And if he was my relative, I'd probably be saying "with his history of drug use and criminal behavior, it was only a matter of time before he would meet his early end". I know, I had a sister who could not beat a drug habit. She had several run-ins with police and once got pretty bruised up trying to resist a cop trying to put cuffs on her after a DUI stop. I tried for years to get her help taking her to AA meetings, paying all her bills. She stole from me and one day took off with as much cash as she could get from my wallet and died two years later of organ failure from alcohol and drugs.

What did I say? I said I knew it would end that way. Whether Floyd's relatives want to admit it or not, they had to know the possibility that his drug use would kill him one way or the other.

It sure as hell contributed to his death.

Corporate law and contributory negligence have no bearing in a criminal matter.

Chauvin is going to be charged with some type of murder - criminally negligent homicide, some type of manslaughter based on reckless disregard for human life, possibly intentional homicide (but probably not).

And contribution by George Floyd is IRRELEVANT. That is a tort law concept.

Pretty much ALL criminals killed by police contribute in some way to their own deaths - even by the simple fact that they committed crimes in the first place. If that was the case, the exception would swallow the rule and no cop would ever be convicted - no matter how brutal.

The relevant question is going to be whether or not Chauvin used an excessive amount of force and whether he reasonably perceived that he was in danger from Floyd.

There is no way that Floyd was a threat to Chauvin. His hands were cuffed behind his back and he was face down on the ground, so he was clearly NOT a threat.

And the fact that Floyd did not want to get in the cop car is irrelevant to whether or not Chauvin should have knelt on his neck. It is inescapable that kneeling on his neck was entirely unnecessary.

If Chauvin and the others stood 5 feet way from him while he was cuffed on the ground, we would not be having this conversation.

If Chauvin had knelt on his buttocks or thighs while he was cuffed on the ground, we would not be having this conversation.

If the cops pushed him into the back of the squad car and he went berserk and started kicking windows, THEN his death would have been his fault and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

But the macho asshole just HAD to show everyone that he was the dominant alpha male. So he killed or recklessly contributed to the death of George Floyd.

The only question is the level of his intent in determining what murder charge he gets convicted of. There is no scenario in which he can be deemed innocent.

[Kinkster90210]

Originally Posted by The_Waco_Kid

Georgie was no victim. they didn't execute him. you make it sound like they pulled their weapons and got their gun off on him. you know that didn't happen. from what is known now those cops shoulda left him in his car to od then called the coroner to take him to the morgue. then he'd still be the nobody he still is ..

You don't have to shoot a guy to execute him. But what do you call kneeling on a guys neck for 8 minutes? When he was clearly no danger to the cop? His hands were cuffed behind, after all.

[The_Waco_Kid]

Originally Posted by Kinkster90210

You don't have to shoot a guy to execute him. But what do you call kneeling on a guys neck for 8 minutes? When he was clearly no danger to the cop? His hands were cuffed behind, after all.

negligent homicide

[Levianon17]

Originally Posted by Kinkster90210

Blaming the victim? That's not an "answer" to anything, shithead.

You do know that cops cannot kill guilty people either, right? I don't care if they had video of Floyd committing a robbery and then injecting heroin right after.

The police are supposed to arrest him and bring him to a hospital to prevent him from ODing. Then bring him to jail once his health if protected.

It called "the rule of law". You might have heard of it. You are allegedly a conservative.

In rule of law nations, we don't allow macho cowboy cops to execute suspects on the sidewalk.

But we do allow women to kill their unborn children. Why doesn't the rule of Law exist there?

[Kinkster90210]

Originally Posted by The_Waco_Kid

negligent homicide

Yes. At the very least.

So, Chauvin does to jail.

[Kinkster90210]

Originally Posted by Levianon17

[/COLOR]
But we do allow women to kill their unborn children. Why doesn't the rule of Law exist there?

Are you kidding me? We are discussing police brutality and you change the subject to abortion? Are you a complete moron? Or just partial?

I am pro-life, but what you just wrote is dumber than a box of hammers. You are a perfect example of a "single-issue" activist who will turn ANY discussion of ANY other topic into a debate over their pet topic.

We could be discussing the benefits to baseball of grass versus astroturf and you would somehow bring abortion into it.

And, just for the record, legal abortion IS the law right now. Whether you like it or not. So you fail even on that ground: abortion does NOT violate the rule of law in any way. If you want to get rid of abortion, you have to change the law.

[The_Waco_Kid]

Originally Posted by Kinkster90210

Yes. At the very least.

So, Chauvin does to jail.

looks like they didn't give in to the social pressure and overcharge.



Murder charges

Chauvin was arrested on May 29, 2020.[34] Hennepin County attorney Mike Freeman charged him with third-degree murder and second-degree manslaughter,[35][4] making him the first white officer in Minnesota to be charged in the death of a black civilian.[36][37] Under Minnesota law, third-degree murder is defined as causing another's death without intent to kill, but "evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life". Second-degree manslaughter also does not imply lethal intent, but that the perpetrator created "an unreasonable risk" of serious harm or death.[38


On May 31, Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison took over the case at the request of Governor Tim Walz. On June 3, Ellison amended the charges against Chauvin to include unintentional second-degree murder under the felony murder doctrine, alleging that Chauvin killed Floyd in the course of committing assault in the third degree;[39][40] Minnesota sentencing guidelines recommend 12.5 years imprisonment on conviction of that charge.[41] Ellison also charged the three other officers with aiding and abetting second-degree murder.[2][42][41] Bail for Chauvin (who did not enter a plea) was set at $1.25 million,[43] and for the three other officers $1 million.[44]



this was never a murder 1 case. that argument simply can't be made. second degree wouldn't be appropriate except that they qualified it as unintentional. they have a good chance to get a conviction on unintentional second degree murder. failing that and unless there is shocking revelation yet to be disclosed it's certainly second degree manslaughter.



if Chauvin is smart he'll have his lawyer strike a plea for second degree manslaughter which it appears they are already trying to do.

[HedonistForever]

Originally Posted by Kinkster90210

Corporate law and contributory negligence have no bearing in a criminal matter.


Really? If you owned a reptile farm ( an actual case ) and a guy decides to jump into the alligator pit and his families lawyer is suing the owner, the jumpers "contributory negligence" won't come up? How much did the jumper contribute to his own death? You're telling me that isn't relevant to the case?


If a car hits you when you are jaywalking, that doesn't come up? The jaywalker didn't contribute to his death?



Chauvin is going to be charged with some type of murder - criminally negligent homicide, some type of manslaughter based on reckless disregard for human life, possibly intentional homicide (but probably not).


He has already been charged.

Chauvin, who has been behind bars since he was arrested on May 29, has been charged with second-degree manslaughter and second-degree murder, a more serious count than he had originally faced. He could be sentenced to up to 40 years in prison.Jun 8, 2020

Looks like the DA is hedging his bet with a lesser charge included.

And contribution by George Floyd is IRRELEVANT. That is a tort law concept.


A few jurors just might see it differently, I would.


Pretty much ALL criminals killed by police contribute in some way to their own deaths - even by the simple fact that they committed crimes in the first place. If that was the case, the exception would swallow the rule and no cop would ever be convicted - no matter how brutal.


Then why would a toxicology report ever be allowed into evidence? If it never has any relevance to any case, it would never be allowed.

The relevant question is going to be whether or not Chauvin used an excessive amount of force and whether he reasonably perceived that he was in danger from Floyd.


That will certainly be a relevant question. But I do not believe one needs to be a threat to the officer to be detained with restraint allowed by the manual. Was it illegal to put a knee to the neck will also be a relevant question.


There is no way that Floyd was a threat to Chauvin. His hands were cuffed behind his back and he was face down on the ground, so he was clearly NOT a threat.


Even if handcuffed, he could be a flight risk if not subdued. Any detainee can be a threat to an officer at any point, that is why an officer must be conscious of a threat at anytime like having his weapon taken even by a guy in cuffs. Just playing defense lawyer.


And the fact that Floyd did not want to get in the cop car is irrelevant to whether or not Chauvin should have knelt on his neck.


I disagree. If Chauvin had only knelt on his neck for two minutes, do you think he would have been charged for kneeling on his neck if the manual didn't specifically forbid it?


It is inescapable that kneeling on his neck was entirely unnecessary.


No, kneeling on his neck till he died was un-necessary.


If Chauvin and the others stood 5 feet way from him while he was cuffed on the ground, we would not be having this conversation.


If you stand 5 feet away from a cuffed man, even one on the ground, you are most likely going to see a man try to flee.


If Chauvin had knelt on his buttocks or thighs while he was cuffed on the ground, we would not be having this conversation.



The defense will ask specifically if the manual forbid kneeling on the neck. I do not know the answer to that question.That will be the relevant question to the issue of the neck other than the time.


If the cops pushed him into the back of the squad car and he went berserk and started kicking windows, THEN his death would have been his fault and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

But the macho asshole just HAD to show everyone that he was the dominant alpha male. So he killed or recklessly contributed to the death of George Floyd.


Recklessly "contributed". There's that word you suggest isn't relevant. I don't think recklessly contributed amounts to murder.


The only question is the level of his intent in determining what murder charge he gets convicted of. There is no scenario in which he can be deemed innocent.

Which is why I said

So yeah, Chauvin gets jail time but shouldn't for murder.

As I see it, the only reason the DA included 2nd degree manslaughter was because he isn't sure he can prove murder and I don't think he can.

[The_Waco_Kid]

Originally Posted by The_Waco_Kid

if Chauvin is smart he'll have his lawyer strike a plea for second degree manslaughter which it appears they are already trying to do.

Originally Posted by HedonistForever

Which is why I said


As I see it, the only reason the DA included 2nd degree manslaughter was because he isn't sure he can prove murder and I don't think he can.

correct. so that's two who think the correct charge is second degree manslaughter.
anyone else?

also it should be noted that typically the prosecution goes for the highest charge they think they can make a case for while hedging their bet with the next lower charge.

[Levianon17]

Originally Posted by Kinkster90210

Are you kidding me? We are discussing police brutality and you change the subject to abortion? Are you a complete moron? Or just partial?

I am pro-life, but what you just wrote is dumber than a box of hammers. You are a perfect example of a "single-issue" activist who will turn ANY discussion of ANY other topic into a debate over their pet topic.

We could be discussing the benefits to baseball of grass versus astroturf and you would somehow bring abortion into it.

And, just for the record, legal abortion IS the law right now. Whether you like it or not. So you fail even on that ground: abortion does NOT violate the rule of law in any way. If you want to get rid of abortion, you have to change the law.

I am not turning the discussion to abortion. I was showing you how one sided your statement was. There are a few factors that must be considered with the George Floyd case. Did Chauvin have specific intent to kill George Floyd? Is there absolute proof that Chauvin's tactic was the cause of death? Lastly and one that the closed minded dummies on the left will never catch onto was the George Floyd incident an authentic event or a psyop designed to create civil and racial unrest against the Police? This country has seen much better days and because the hatred by the left for a president and the use of Police Brutality and racism as a tool this is where we are at and it will spread like a cancer throughout the country.

[Strokey_McDingDong]

Body cam shows he was completely belligerent and hopped up on drugs.
Not to mention he was also driving while intoxicated and knowingly had COVID-19 while was not social distancing or wearing a mask. Just another "I dinn doo nuffin" jack off.


::

[smokedog01]

You dopes really need to take the entire "hopped up on drugs" argument out of your narrative. Fentanyl is not a performance enhancer. The guy was not hopped up on meth or bath salts. He ingested a medication that slows you to a creep. Cops wish every drug call that they had to deal with were dudes slowed down to 33 rpm.


I'm not going to lie, I am kinda racist and certainly prejudiced but George Floyd was straight up murdered.