OBAMA'S WAR ON AMERICAN WORKERS CONTINUES...

[CuteOldGuy]

My point is the UE rate is not an accurate reflection of what is happening in the labor market. The economy is stagnant. Welfare rolls continue to increase. Real unemployment is growing. The stock market is substantially over valued. The National Debt is unsustainable. The FED keeps throwing greenbacks on a saturated money market, by the trillions. This is a recipe for disaster. A disaster of unprecedented and epic proportions. It's time to pay attention to the man behind the curtain. It is probably too late.

[WombRaider]

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

My point is the UE rate is not an accurate reflection of what is happening in the labor market. The economy is stagnant. Welfare rolls continue to increase. Real unemployment is growing. The stock market is substantially over valued. The National Debt is unsustainable. The FED keeps throwing greenbacks on a saturated money market, by the trillions. This is a recipe for disaster. A disaster of unprecedented and epic proportions. It's time to pay attention to the man behind the curtain. It is probably too late.

Oh, it's too late bitch tits. We are going down... like the 15 dirty, dirty whooores that had the unfortunate experience of having sexual relations with you. Poor wretches.

[DSK]

Originally Posted by WombRaider

Who told you to buy a windows machine?

IT

[Whirlaway]

You are wrong.

Of course Employers of H1B visa workers won't admit they hire because it it cheaper for them. But that is the reason they bring in replacement workers.

The H-1B program has been corrupted by a large and growing share of firms that use it for cheap labor and to facilitate the outsourcing of jobs. Gaping loopholes make it very easy and legal to pay below-market wages. In fact, employers admitted to the Government Accountability Office, Congress’ watchdog agency, that they use the visas to hire less-expensive foreign workers. And examples of approved H-1B applications show how the program undercuts American workers. In 2006, the U.S. Department of Labor rubber-stamped HCL America’s bid to import 75 computer software engineers at $11.88 per hour.

And the American worker H1B visas hurt the most ?

Recent college grads.

Read about the H1B Visa abuse at Disney !

http://www.computerworld.com/article...n-workers.html

Originally Posted by shanm

^that's just not true. You can argue that high skilled labor immigration depresses wages because they increase the existing supply of labor, but you can not argue that high skilled workers are hired simply because employers can pay them less.
Its called wage discrimination and it is highly illegal. Any immigrant worker in a legal, white collar job is afforded the same rights and same pay as a native born American worker. Wrong. The H1B Visa program is full of loopholes that make wage discrimination possible.

[i'va biggen]

Originally Posted by shanm

It's a legal academic paper discussing employment discrimination in the immigrant workforce. The link is working for me. Anyone else?
Here, I'll post it again:

http://www.cob.sjsu.edu/malos_s/ERRJ...rimination.PDF


I'm not here to butt heads with you man. You made a stupid ass claim and were proven wrong.
Now you can choose to admit it or continue to deflect it with your dumb-ass condescension. Makes no difference to me.

Originally Posted by Whirlaway

You are wrong.

Of course Employers of H1B visa workers won't admit they hire because it it cheaper for them. But that is the reason they bring in replacement workers.

The H-1B program has been corrupted by a large and growing share of firms that use it for cheap labor and to facilitate the outsourcing of jobs. Gaping loopholes make it very easy and legal to pay below-market wages. In fact, employers admitted to the Government Accountability Office, Congress’ watchdog agency, that they use the visas to hire less-expensive foreign workers. And examples of approved H-1B applications show how the program undercuts American workers. In 2006, the U.S. Department of Labor rubber-stamped HCL America’s bid to import 75 computer software engineers at $11.88 per hour.

And the American worker H1B visas hurt the most ?

Recent college grads.

Read about the H1B Visa abuse at Disney !

http://www.computerworld.com/article...n-workers.html

Here he beat me to it.

[DSK]

Originally Posted by Whirlaway

You are wrong.

Of course Employers of H1B visa workers won't admit they hire because it it cheaper for them. But that is the reason they bring in replacement workers.

The H-1B program has been corrupted by a large and growing share of firms that use it for cheap labor and to facilitate the outsourcing of jobs. Gaping loopholes make it very easy and legal to pay below-market wages. In fact, employers admitted to the Government Accountability Office, Congress’ watchdog agency, that they use the visas to hire less-expensive foreign workers. And examples of approved H-1B applications show how the program undercuts American workers. In 2006, the U.S. Department of Labor rubber-stamped HCL America’s bid to import 75 computer software engineers at $11.88 per hour.

And the American worker H1B visas hurt the most ?

Recent college grads.

Read about the H1B Visa abuse at Disney !

http://www.computerworld.com/article...n-workers.html

We are just giving the country away to the bigshots with money and no conscience who happily fire longtime workers and replace them with foreign workers. Then the fired US workers get government assistance for themselves and their families.
How is it rational?

[Whirlaway]

You are right. And it is happening at all levels of the economic ladder.

Blacks and whites are getting screwed by our politicians in Washington. And Obama is leading the way.

Originally Posted by DSK

We are just giving the country away to the bigshots with money and no conscience who happily fire longtime workers and replace them with foreign workers. Then the fired US workers get government assistance for themselves and their families.
How is it rational?

[DSK]

Originally Posted by shanm

"Obama's war on American workers continues".
You're just another stupid motherfucker. You have no interest in getting to the bottom of the problem and you'll be content with playing partisan politics as long as you get a pothole to shit in.

Hiring illegals is simply the cost of pure unadulterated capitalism, and not even of the crony kind. Companies are hiring illegals because they cost less. When companies can avoid paying payroll and social security taxes on their employees, why wouldn't they?
None of this has much to do with Obama but more-so to do with a broken government (as a whole). The government doesn't enforce proper taxation laws and the IRS is more than content with just ignoring the entire problem. The blue collar crowd in America is the one bearing the brunt of it.



Yes, that's exactly what I'm telling you. That might not be what you want to hear but its the truth. When Toyota deployed it's Kaizen Strategy in the U.S for the first time they failed because they realized that the ideals of "continuous improvement" could not be instilled in a company whose workers were as lazy and inefficient as Americans.

We have people coming in from China, India, all different parts of Europe and they're all either better skilled or simply more hard-working than most Americans. Our economy is doing extremely well currently: corporate profits are at record highs, we're making breakthroughs in technology, science, media etc etc every single day, and I highly doubt that all of it would or could be achieved without high-skilled workers from foreign countries. Clearly, whatever policies we have had for immigration of skilled labor have been working on the macroeconomic scale. Contrary to what people might have you believe, we have never had a surplus of skilled labor. And that is because our economy is expanding constantly, creating new jobs and new markets which employ workers both domestic and foreign. If you truly want a job in today's America, you'll find one. Just don't be under the illusion that you'll be able to keep it while simply sitting on your ass.

One major issue that comes into play is labor mobility. An immigrant labor is more likely and more willing to move to the location which offers him a job. Native born worker...not so much. They already have their homes and families established, and therefore aren't as willing to relocate. An aerospace engineer might not find much work in the corn fields of Iowa, but there will be plenty for him in Texas (Houston, DFW). I remember reading that economists consider this a prime issue in todays labor market economics and it is one of the leading causes of better immigrant job growth compared to native workers. I'll post some links later.

While it is true that some foreign born workers are a great help to our country, you have to look at the total package of immigration to defend or condemn it.

When US workers are displaced, that hurts the country. It costs money. It is shifting the cost of firing to the US government and its taxpayers while boosting the profits of big corporations.

Also, if Americans are so lazy, how did we develop the once greatest country in the world?
How did we defeat Japan and Germany in WWII? How did we put a man on the moon and assist Al Gore in inventing the internet?

I generally like Indians but if they are such great engineers, why is their country so backward technologically? What good does it do another country for their best citizens to leave?
In spite of Ted Kennedy's promise, immigration has so radically changed the United States it is fundamentally and forever changed. It has been a complete and successful invasion to the point where I defy anyone to define America in such a way that a great majority could agree anything for very long.
I doubt everyone would even agree it is radically changed, in spite of how obvious that is.
America is now just a geographic area full of slaves working for the rich and attempting to drug themselves with sports, religion, food, hallucinogenics, and false narratives supported by the spin doctors of the day.

[Guest040616]

Originally Posted by Whirlaway

And Obama is leading the way.

That's the spirit Broken Record, errr TrendingIdiot! It's always Obama's fault!

[shanm]

Originally Posted by Whirlaway

You are wrong.

Of course Employers of H1B visa workers won't admit they hire because it it cheaper for them. But that is the reason they bring in replacement workers.

The H-1B program has been corrupted by a large and growing share of firms that use it for cheap labor and to facilitate the outsourcing of jobs. Gaping loopholes make it very easy and legal to pay below-market wages. In fact, employers admitted to the Government Accountability Office, Congress’ watchdog agency, that they use the visas to hire less-expensive foreign workers. And examples of approved H-1B applications show how the program undercuts American workers. In 2006, the U.S. Department of Labor rubber-stamped HCL America’s bid to import 75 computer software engineers at $11.88 per hour.

And the American worker H1B visas hurt the most ?

Recent college grads.

Read about the H1B Visa abuse at Disney !

http://www.computerworld.com/article...n-workers.html

Originally Posted by i'va biggen

Here he beat me to it.

You and him both are either deliberately or unwittingly misunderstanding what I said.

What you're talking about is something I mentioned in my first comment to I'va. Here:

Originally Posted by shanm

^that's just not true. You can argue that high skilled labor immigration depresses wages because they increase the existing supply of labor=.

Labor immigration can depress wages, no one will deny that. And it's not just immigrants. It happens with our very own domestic workers as well. Companies, under the guise of capitalism, fire long-term workers and hire recent college grads because they cost less. Why pay someone $150,000 when you can pay a new college grad to do the same job for $50,000? It ends up hurting the older population a lot more than college grads.

What I was saying to I'va, is that you can not pay an immigrant worker less for the same work. You can hire an immigrant worker for less, just as long as you fire the domestic worker who was working for that higher wage. '
Let's say you have two workers in one department, one is an immigrant named Akil and the other a domestic worker named John. They both do the same job and John is paid 60,000 while Akil is paid $50,0000. If Akil gets wind of this, then Akil has every right to sue. That is what I was arguing. The case is subject to basic wage discrimination laws and they apply as equally to immigrants as they do to domestic workers. No immigrant will "lose his job" if he "complains" for being paid less than his American co-worker. If you read the paper that I linked above it mentions several dozen pay and firing-related cases. Although the companies were able to win most of the cases due to "technical grounds such as faulty pleading, failure to exhaust administrative remedies, filing with the wrong administrative agency, or mischaracterizing immigration claims as ones involving national origin status", it doesn't change the fact that it is illegal to base pay decisions based on immigration status.

The same is happening in here. They bring in immigrant workers which depresses the wages of those IT workers as a whole. Also, note that these are far from "high-paying" positions. As soon as immigrant workers actually reach those "high-paying" positions, they are fired and replaced with fresh faced immigrant or domestic workers which are much cheaper than the older more experienced workers. What you mentioned above and the Disney cases are examples of pure unadulterated capitalism.
We already know the IT departments have been failing in the U.S, as companies outsource to different parts of the world. The Disney example is just one of the companies doing the opposite. They are bringing in immigrant workers to work as IT thereby depressing the wages of IT workers even more.
The thing is, while it may be applicable to IT workers who can be replaced entirely by a swarm of foreigners, it can not be as easily replicated in almost any other field. Take medicine for example. You can bring in a doctor from India, but you can not place him on a lesser wage than doctors with similar experience and education from here in the U.S. The same would apply to most high-paying jobs. IT is a peculiar industry where labor market is extremely global, as in, you can pick and choose what part of the world you want your IT workers to be in and still maintain consistent quality of service. This is one of the main reasons our IT industry is being entirely outsourced.

[shanm]

Originally Posted by DSK

While it is true that some foreign born workers are a great help to our country, you have to look at the total package of immigration to defend or condemn it.

When US workers are displaced, that hurts the country. It costs money. It is shifting the cost of firing to the US government and its taxpayers while boosting the profits of big corporations.

Also, if Americans are so lazy, how did we develop the once greatest country in the world?
How did we defeat Japan and Germany in WWII? How did we put a man on the moon and assist Al Gore in inventing the internet?

I generally like Indians but if they are such great engineers, why is their country so backward technologically? What good does it do another country for their best citizens to leave?
In spite of Ted Kennedy's promise, immigration has so radically changed the United States it is fundamentally and forever changed. It has been a complete and successful invasion to the point where I defy anyone to define America in such a way that a great majority could agree anything for very long.
I doubt everyone would even agree it is radically changed, in spite of how obvious that is.
America is now just a geographic area full of slaves working for the rich and attempting to drug themselves with sports, religion, food, hallucinogenics, and false narratives supported by the spin doctors of the day.

Immigration is a two-way street, and like you said: you have to look at the total package of immigration to defend or condemn it. Most empirical and theoretical studies done on immigration suggest that it is beneficial to the economy if a) done in moderation, b) done selectively c)if you do not account for the effect of illegal immigration. Here, I'll link an economic paper by the NBER, it will put it better than I can. Skip the mathematical analysis stuff, focus on the abstract and the conclusion.
http://www.nber.org/papers/w11672.pdf

Also, if Americans are so lazy, how did we develop the once greatest country in the world?

Simple, America is a country built by immigrants from it's very inception. If you take out the effects of immigrant scientists from Germany, Russia and many other parts of the world, we would not have had the military capabilities that we possess currently, or even the ones we possessed 50 years ago. I think the Man on the moon conversation is currently one being Grubered by IBMoron, just skip back a page or two. Our buildings were built by blacks, our railroads by Asians. It all just depends on how you define "American".

Also, one distinction between what you suggest and what I was suggesting would quite simply be caused by time. The American blue-collar workers were our pride and joy when industries were booming and companies like Ford were hiring them in droves. Nowadays, not so much. Our workers have become entitled. That is in stark contrast to workers of countries that are still developing and emerging as global powers. I mentioned the Toyota Kaizen for a reason. It is used as an exemplar for most modern day factories and manufacturing companies. When Toyota applied it's Kaizen(continuous improvement) system in America for the first time, they realized that the American workers were too lazy, overconfident and indifferent to the results of their work. This was in contrast with Japanese workers who were trained on the concepts of hard work, meticulousness and, most importantly, honor; they took great pride in their work and disgracing their companies was considered a extremely embarrassing. Consider the reliability ratings of foreign car manufacturers to American car companies, and you'll get some idea of what I'm talking about.

It's simple, immigration might hurt our labor market. BUT, the gains from it in terms of our advancement in the sciences, technology and other areas far outpace any downsides it causes from displacing American workers. As with any economic decision, you have to take the good with the bad and decide overall what is good for the economy.



Also, on a side note, you don't really believe that Al Gore invented the fucking internet do you?


EDIT: this is the link for the labor mobility claims I made in post #12:
http://www.cato.org/blog/immigrants-did-not-take-job

[clitlicker7]

So according to your argument, Disney fucks over some foreign kids trying to make a living and it's Obama's fault. Now I get it..... I should have put that together. It was right there in my face the whole time.

[DSK]

Originally Posted by shanm

Immigration is a two-way street, and like you said: you have to look at the total package of immigration to defend or condemn it. Most empirical and theoretical studies done on immigration suggest that it is beneficial to the economy if a) done in moderation, b) done selectively c)if you do not account for the effect of illegal immigration. Here, I'll link an economic paper by the NBER, it will put it better than I can. Skip the mathematical analysis stuff, focus on the abstract and the conclusion.
http://www.nber.org/papers/w11672.pdf



Simple, America is a country built by immigrants from it's very inception. If you take out the effects of immigrant scientists from Germany, Russia and many other parts of the world, we would not have had the military capabilities that we possess currently, or even the ones we possessed 50 years ago. I think the Man on the moon conversation is currently one being Grubered by IBMoron, just skip back a page or two. Our buildings were built by blacks, our railroads by Asians. It all just depends on how you define "American".

Also, one distinction between what you suggest and what I was suggesting would quite simply be caused by time. The American blue-collar workers were our pride and joy when industries were booming and companies like Ford were hiring them in droves. Nowadays, not so much. Our workers have become entitled. That is in stark contrast to workers of countries that are still developing and emerging as global powers. I mentioned the Toyota Kaizen for a reason. It is used as an exemplar for most modern day factories and manufacturing companies. When Toyota applied it's Kaizen(continuous improvement) system in America for the first time, they realized that the American workers were too lazy, overconfident and indifferent to the results of their work. This was in contrast with Japanese workers who were trained on the concepts of hard work, meticulousness and, most importantly, honor; they took great pride in their work and disgracing their companies was considered a extremely embarrassing. Consider the reliability ratings of foreign car manufacturers to American car companies, and you'll get some idea of what I'm talking about.

It's simple, immigration might hurt our labor market. BUT, the gains from it in terms of our advancement in the sciences, technology and other areas far outpace any downsides it causes from displacing American workers. As with any economic decision, you have to take the good with the bad and decide overall what is good for the economy.



Also, on a side note, you don't really believe that Al Gore invented the fucking internet do you?


EDIT: this is the link for the labor mobility claims I made in post #12:
http://www.cato.org/blog/immigrants-did-not-take-job

Since the premise of your argument is predicated on immigration being legally done in moderation & selectively, I can accept your arguments. Additionally, prior to the 1960's the immigrants came from high wage, high education European countries, and not just any poor, low skilled person willing to work - then bringing their poor dependents with them who need a lot of social services.

We need self supporting immigrants who come to the country - not just those willing to work cheap and be an anchor for the rest of their family - and all families have deadbeats in them!! Unfortunately, the effect of illegal immigration is overwhelming legal immigration.

[chefnerd]

You do realize that the foreign born numbers also include millions of naturalized U.S. citizens don't you? Or do you, like Breitbart the idiot, care to include them in the illegal category since you don't seem to believe that naturalize U.S. citizens are Americans?

BTW, if my father and his parents were still alive today and in the workforce, they would be included in the "foreign born" statistics even though they were U.S. citizens.

[shanm]

Originally Posted by chefnerd

You do realize that the foreign born numbers also include millions of naturalized U.S. citizens don't you? Or do you, like Breitbart the idiot, care to include them in the illegal category since you don't seem to believe that naturalize U.S. citizens are Americans?

BTW, if my father and his parents were still alive today and in the workforce, they would be included in the "foreign born" statistics even though they were U.S. citizens.

I'm sure there were retards arguing about it back in the day too