Waitaminute! Hypocritical?

[Introuble]

Originally Posted by TexTushHog

The first thought that I had before reading some of the statement from some of the women here was that part of the typical "do as I say, not as I do" mentality we see directed at daughters is the different (and arguably biased) view society takes toward male and female participants in the hobby. It seems almost beyond dispute that there is a much greater social and legal stigma placed of providers than hobbyists. And I first thought that one of the best explanations of the so called hypocrisy was that disparity in stigmatization.

Query this: Would you feel substantially different if you learned that your young son was patronizing providers on a regular basis (let's say compared to learning that your daughter was not providing full time, but making extra money providing about once a week, while going to college -- to make the time comparisons roughly the same)? I suspect that most would fell differently. And if so, is that because there is really any more harm to providing on a part time basis? Or is it because of stigmatization issues?

However, reading some of the bitter views posted about the life of a provider causes me to rethink that a bit. Not that the stigtimization hypothis is inaccurate, but perhaps that's not the main reason for the hypocrisy. If the full time job of a provider is so misserable, dispiriting, and demoralizing as CPI suggests, perhaps prostitution is really not a victimless crime as I suspect most of us would otherwise contend. Thoughts?

First, I think it is just as wrong for males or females to participate in this hobby. Wrong is wrong no matter how you spell it. My beliefs are consistent with the overwhelming majority of Americans albeit different from other parts of the world who have figured out it is almost impossible to legislate morality. Even having said that, it is still wrong.

As far as the hypocritical aspect of Do As I Say, Not As I Do is concerned, isn't that what parenting is all about? Short of being a perfect parent, we parent with wisdom tempered with personal experiences. The imperfection of our implementation of those skills and experiences is where the hypocritical aspects comes into play.

If my son was found out to be playing in the hobby, I would be just as upset as I would should it be a daughter. I will agree that superficially it appears that the male is "less" wrong than the female based upon participation relating to exposure and hours. None the less, it is still just as wrong.

Am I hypocritical in feeling this way....SURE and I will be the first to admit it. But honestly, what parent is not? We are all hypocritical parents regardless of our attempts to lead by example rather than actions......human flaws I suppose.

I would also argue that the hobby is NOT victimless as many argue. Many deal with the negatives very well, but most suffer in some way visible and invisible and have simply found a way to take some type of dysfunctionality in their lives, and turn it to "good", ie money and fun. Most of us suffer from varying degrees of guilt both personal and societal, a secretive lifestyle that we keep from family and friends, broken marriages or the inability to maintain a relationship long term, and the list goes on. The divorces that are caused by the hobby, the hurt, the financial ruin of the clients offset by the usual wasteful lifestyle of many providers (OK there are a few that save and get rich).

So to encourage, support, or even give the slightest hint of approval by "accepting" it should a parent discover their worst nightmare......it is the worst of all possible scenarios. Sometimes cutting ones self off from someone as a last resort in order to show disapproval (which as parents know hurts but is a form of loving that child) is necessary. That is the Tough Love we must display sometimes. To do otherwise is selfish and is catering to your own failures as a parent and is the easy way out of a bad situation.

[Nebekenezer]

I would disagree strongly that the hobby is "wrong". I don't have an SO (my wife passed away a year and a half ago), so I don't have to worry about sneaking around. I am in no way ashamed of paying providers for sex, but do hide it from certain people in my life (my parents, for example) out of respect for them and their feelings. My feeling have always been that people should do pretty much whatever they want, as long as they aren't hurting someone else.

I am not naive enough to think that the ladies love me or are even attracted to me physically (I'm not all that attractive), but I make sure I am respectful and nice, and try to at least let them know I appreciate them. I don't really have the time or patience to date right now, so this is my way of fulfilling the need for physical intimacy.

I also don't judge other peoples reasons for hobbying. My reasons are my reasons, and others have their reasons.

But I just don't see how the hobby itself is "wrong". Don't get me wrong, I understand that it is wrong according to the prevailng feelings of society in general, and according to the church and such, but that is narrow thinking, IMO.

[guest123009]

The wrongness in my mind is that I am taking advantage of a woman's desperation or psychological impairment to satisfy my own selfish needs.

[Guest030911]

Originally Posted by FatManHobbyist

The wrongness in my mind is that I am taking advantage of a woman's desperation or psychological impairment to satisfy my own selfish needs.

And some might argue they are doing the same to you...

I ain't saying the hobby is right. It just is what it is...

[Nebekenezer]

Originally Posted by FatManHobbyist

The wrongness in my mind is that I am taking advantage of a woman's desperation or psychological impairment to satisfy my own selfish needs.

I understand that, and to be honest, I think that is for her to work out. We all have different reasons for doing this. I don't really consider myself as taking advantage of the provider. We are both consenting adults, and I would never ask a lady to do something she was uncomfortable with, and she is being compensated well for the service.

[guest123009]

Perhaps it is the same reason one must eat shit at many jobs or stays in a job that is emotionally draining with a jerk for a boss... because it pays the bills. I am still mulling this over and not seeing anyone until I do not feel like I am taking advantage.

[TexTushHog]

I tend to fall on the less moralistic side. Much less moralistic side. I'm a libertine and a libertarian at heart. But it is discouraging to see that the facade of women enjoying this is just that -- a facade. But as FMH points out, millions upon millions of people are stuck in jobs they hate for all kinds of reasons. More often than not, that sort of thing is (or at one time was) within your control. With much freedom comes much responsibility. If we are going to live in a free society, failure to take care in educating yourself, inculcating a personality where you can advance in the work place, obtaining and honing valuable skills, etc., you may find yourself in a job you hate whether you are male or female. It may be sacking groceries. It may be kissing a bosses ass in a bank or a body shop. It may be living under extreme pressure in the rat race of a big law firm. But you make your choices and you live with the consequences. Why is this job any different (unless you approach it with the overlay of Judeo-Christain morals as InTrouble does)?

[Nebekenezer]

Originally Posted by FatManHobbyist

The wrongness in my mind is that I am taking advantage of a woman's desperation or psychological impairment to satisfy my own selfish needs.

I just re-read this entire thread, and nowhere in the responses from the two providers that have responded does it say they feel desperate or taken advantage of. They do say they would want "better" for their daughter than to be a provider, but what parent doesn't want that.

I work a crappy job that literally sucks the life out of me everyday. It is soulcrushing and mind numbing. I pray everyday that my boys make better choices in life than I did so they can have a job/profession that is fulfilling, and that they can be proud of. But in no way am I being taken advantage of by my employer.

I truly appreciate what the ladies who are providers do. It's not something I could do if I was a woman.

I think a lot of the "shame" that comes from being a provider (or hobbyist for that matter) is due to our society's view of sex as being something bad, or nasty, or something that should not be discussed. It's a shame to me that a TV show can have an incredible amount of violence with no outcry from parental groups or government censors, but Janet Jackson flashes a nipple for half a second, and it's a national outrage. But that is not the topic being discussed here.

[guest123009]

Originally Posted by Nebekenezer

I just re-read this entire thread, and nowhere in the responses from the two providers that have responded does it say they feel desperate or taken advantage of.

I don't believe I said they did.

[Nebekenezer]

I'm sorry. I really didn't mean to put words in your mouth. Here is what you said that made me this that:

Originally Posted by FatManHobbyist

Considering the responses of the ladies, I need to rethink my position and participation in prostitution.

And then you posted this:

Originally Posted by FatManHobbyist

The wrongness in my mind is that I am taking advantage of a woman's desperation or psychological impairment to satisfy my own selfish needs.

Again, I didn't mean to put words in your mouth, I just got that impression from those two posts.

[guest123009]

Yes, those were not connected. The second was more inspired by cpi's post.

[Introuble]

Originally Posted by TexTushHog

Why is this job any different (unless you approach it with the overlay of Judeo-Christain morals as InTrouble does)?

This job is different because it is illegal and from a societal perspective unacceptable. Sacking groceries, working at a bank, or repairing cars is not........I would have assumed that was obvious.

While I agree with the "wrongness" of the hobby from a societal perspective, it is obvious that I have mastered hypocrisy in my participation in it. I do not believe it should be against the law as regulating morality is impossible and the attempts to control it have never worked well. Undeniably however are the negative aspects of the hobby such as broken families, drugs that seems to always be close by, the physical abuse of BF and pimps, the low "societal" self-esteem that is common to both hobbyists and provider etc. It is from those items that laws have been created.

I would argue that aside from the "Judeo-Christain morals" that seem to always be in play, that a larger more direct influence is at play too. The fear of destroying the nuclear family unit due to a man's (or women's) lust for the carnal pleasures many are deprived of. The sanctity of marriage (family) is in many eyes more the reason than religious beliefs and participation in the hobby is seen as an attack on the family values.

American culture just seems to have a thing for a Sodom and Gomorrah community where everyone is running rampant with legalized and uncontrolled sexual urges. From that perspective I have to agree. I would not want a red light district with legalized prostitutes in Dallas. Nevada is bad enough.

Nevada is expensive and the quality is much worse that Dallas.

[TexTushHog]

Introuble, if prostitution was legalized, would that change your view toward it being wrong? Would it change your view toward not wanting your daughter (or son) to engage in it?

I suspect that you will say "No" to those questions. If so, what is it that makes you think it is wrong? Sustaining the nuclear family?

Why do you think that the nuclear family model is so sacrosanct. Personally, I think that families come in all sizes, shapes, and type and that no one version can be uniformly said to be better than the other. My older daughter was raised since four by her mother (we're divorced). My younger one is actually my girlfriend's daughter and they moved in when she was 8 or 9 and we've never married. He dad hasn't been in the picture at all since shortly after she was born. And my GF and the father lived together for a while, but never married. Both are doing great and in great universities. Many of my friends who have kids are either raising them alone (never married/had kids by artificial inseminatin -- some straight, some gay and lesbian), aren't married and had kids, or raising them after divorce. None seem to have problems. Mainly because all parents are highly educated and have good jobs. It seems to me that the real issue isn't the format of the family, but the quality of the parenting.

[fawn]

you know there are so many sides to this coin.....and no i wouldn't want my girls to do this....you know guys, there are so many different circumstances that bring ladies or babies to this board.... i dont think there is one girl or woman on this board that woke up one morning and decided they wanted to be a hooker....i CAN'T speak for anyone but my self, but being a mother and a damn good one at that i will do anything and i do mean anything to get back what is mine and to be able to take care of my children and help them go to college....and if that makes me wrong or hypocrite then so be it...i am a very strong woman that has had to learn to survive with out her husband....

someone said in this thread that they know their child wouldn't do this because the way she was raised.... guess what i came from
a prom ante family with a very strict up bringing... yes my father instilled a good set of morals and values in me and i still have them but men is what you dont understand a good mother will do anything for her children....

[SASpurfan]

Fawn is indeed a strong woman and is not only in the "business" for her own enjoyment, but primarily to provide for her family as a single mom. And guys, we need to recognize that we are fortunate to have her and many others in the hobby to help meet our needs as well.

SAS