Nice-Guy-Itis?

[jfred]

Originally Posted by Woody of TX

Try thinking outside the box.... if you're not aware what I am referencing now.. you will eventually, well maybe...

Think of me as your Grasshopper, Wise One.

I only hope my path leads me to attain...umm...well, whatever the hell you're talking about.

Or (here's an idea!) you could just tell me. You know how I feel about delayed gratification.


P.S. Upon reflection, stick to the one word posts.

[Carrie Hillcrest]

Originally Posted by DFW5Traveler

I have to ask all the providers now, is it hard to deal with clients who may have insecurity issues and do you just act your way through the session? Do you let them schedule future appointments?

For the second question, if your answered no, why so heartless?

It is difficult -- and consequently a lot less enjoyable -- to find myself on a date with someone who is noticeably insecure. However, on a paid date I am a lot more understanding about it than when on a civilian date, and I will work to help him feel good about himself. Helping make people comfortable and happy is kinda a big part of my job, you know?

However, if I realize I'm counting down the minutes or dreading seeing him again, I won't see him again. I don't consider that heartless at all, but respectful. Part of my business model is actual enjoyment in being around the people I choose to see; if I continued to take someone's money and NOT provide that experience, that would be heartless.

That said, I don't swing the other way either -- arrogance and cockiness is also unappealing! Actually, that's much, much worse... Ick.

"But, Carrie, what DO you like?"

I'm so glad you asked! Confidence and respect. Intelligence and curiosity. Banter. Gracious hosting. Cufflinks.

Originally Posted by looiecypher

I have to say the person who wrote this supposedly insight into "Nice Guys" does sound like a total bitch.
I have zero problems with confidence .I am communicative,and from most accounts a good looking guy.
I certainly don't go buying gifts for someone and or bring roses to 1st dates etc.
For the author to post the article as she did shows a total lack of understanding of men and their feelings.She shows herself to be one of the worst type of women.
I was brought up to respect women ,to treat them as equals and to be courteous ,etc.
By the authors standards that makes me weak and unattractive.So ,in her opinion I should treat women as lesser human beings,give no respect and ignore their needs.
Some people are not built that way.
Although I am a "Nice Guy" I also will not be treated as a door mat and for those who think my compassion is a weakness ,be warned you will be sadly mistaken.
By quoting this text Carrie it makes you appear to be of the same mind as the author.She seems very crass and just a really horrible person.
From what I have heard of you Carrie,it sounds to be the opposite of what you are.

Okay, I see what you're saying. And you're right, she does sound like a bitch (a heartless one, at that...). I do think you misread the article, though. She's not berating men who are truly kind/compassionate/caring, but men who pretend -- to the point of being in denial -- to be kind/compassionate/caring because they think it will get them attention/affection/sex from women, and who then lash out or become whiny when the women they want aren't fooled by the act and instead are completely alienated by it. There's a huge difference between the two. One is rational and commendable, the other is irrational and creepy.

It's like:
A man adopting a dog from the shelter because he likes dogs and wants to help one in need
vs.
A man adopting a dog because he thinks the chick at the dog park will be into him if he has a dog and then being baffled about why she doesn't suddenly like him and deciding there must be something WRONG with her, how could she be so stupid as to not like him because he is suuuuuuuch a niiiiiiice guuuuuuuy etc.

Big, big difference.

[CoHorn]

[QUOTE/=Carrie Hillcrest]I'm so glad you asked! Confidence and respect. Intelligence and curiosity. Banter. Gracious hosting. Cufflinks./QUOTE]

Carrie, I have cuff links. Will you date me?

[Tiffany Cums]

Originally Posted by Buckmaster222

Perhaps I could benefit from some coaching Maybe just need to act on those fantasies with my favorite lady and do as jfred says, pre-warn her. Just my thoughts…..

I have been known to coach a few....

[Carrie Hillcrest]

Originally Posted by CoHorn

Carrie, I have cuff links. Will you date me?

And a dog in your avatar too! How could I say no?!

[Guest112113-3]

Originally Posted by jfred

Think of me as your Grasshopper, Wise One.

I only hope my path leads me to attain...umm...well, whatever the hell you're talking about.

Originally Posted by Carrie Hillcrest

Confidence and respect. Intelligence and curiosity. Banter. Gracious hosting. Cufflinks.

Jfred, note the last quote from Carrie....

et al "Trust"

[jfred]

Originally Posted by Buckmaster222

…I have a difficult time even venturing outside the norm...

Read one of these and call me in a week [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Exhibitionism-Shy-Show-Dress-Talk/dp/0940208164"]Amazon.com: Exhibitionism for the Shy: Show Off, Dress Up and Talk Hot (9780940208162): Carol Queen: Books[/ame]

[jfred]

Originally Posted by Woody of TX

Jfred, note the last quote from Carrie....

et al "Trust"

Damn, Woody, now you're speakin' Latin on me.

Let me see if I can figure this out...okay, you quote Carrie (whom you, no doubt, sense I admire)...hmm.

Then the Latin stuff...et al...I think there should be a period after al 'cause it's short for et alia, but I think it means "and all the others" and I'm not sure you're using it quite right but...hmm.

So Carrie lists these good qualities (trust not among them, I can't help notice) and you say, "et al Trust"...I got it!

You're thinking that your word, Trust, sorta encapsulates the qualities Carrie listed. Yes? Alright!!

But, Woody, despite my sense of accomplishment, it wears me out to do all that. Could you please just tell me next time?

[TexTushHog]

I with JFred on this. If I have to be impolite and an asshole to fit women's expectations, then I'll just have to be a damn disappointment then. Damned if I'm going to forget my manners just to impress a woman.

And while I understand Chevalier's point about defining what a bad boy is, I have all too often seen guys who treat women like shit in public get attention from women that I don't understand. In case after case in which the woman in question should have just slapped the shit out of the guy and told him he was uncouth and a fucking asshole, they just snuggle up in their arms and take more abuse. And lots of the gals end up in physically abusive relationships and then wonder why!

Well, that's just not me. And if that's what any given woman want, then fuck her, I'm not for her and she'll just have to be happy without me. And I'll Goddamned be sure to be happy without her.

As for the "bad guy only in the bed room," I agree that trust and respect should be there first. But even there, I don't associate being a nice guy with being insecure. Being a bad boy is almost more like role play. Why would a girl think that by sharing her affections with a man, if he is kind and polite BCD he supposedly has a mental handicap or a personality disorder? What the fuck has our society come to. Jesus.

[jfred]

Originally Posted by TexTushHog

...What the fuck has our society come to. Jesus.

Well, counsellor, I spoke with Jesus this morning (speaking of Counsellors!) and relayed your concern.

He said to tell you that that question comes up often around The Dinner Table. They aren't crazy about things either and are working on the situation but can't give you a time-table. I got the impression They want it to be a surprise.

P.S. He also mentioned that, while He Himself is know for leniency, Dad can be uber-sensitive about unapproved usage of the family name (and apparently can really drop the hammer when he's pissed!). You might want to watch that.

[Chevalier]

Originally Posted by TexTushHog

I have all too often seen guys who treat women like shit in public get attention from women that I don't understand. In case after case in which the woman in question should have just slapped the shit out of the guy and told him he was uncouth and a fucking asshole, they just snuggle up in their arms and take more abuse.

Self-esteem issues?

Fear?

Attracted by the confidence so much they don't notice (right away) that he's a jerk?

The "oh, but my love will change him into what I want him to be" fallacy?

[Guest012211-3]

Insecure Women ( neglected or abused as children) will confuse control and "bad boy" behaviour with strength and love. Sad.

They are easily manipulated by fear of men leaving and taking away their "love".

[DFW5Traveler]

Originally Posted by Carrie Hillcrest

It is difficult -- and consequently a lot less enjoyable -- to find myself on a date with someone who is noticeably insecure. However, on a paid date I am a lot more understanding about it than when on a civilian date, and I will work to help him feel good about himself. Helping make people comfortable and happy is kinda a big part of my job, you know?

However, if I realize I'm counting down the minutes or dreading seeing him again, I won't see him again. I don't consider that heartless at all, but respectful. Part of my business model is actual enjoyment in being around the people I choose to see; if I continued to take someone's money and NOT provide that experience, that would be heartless.

That said, I don't swing the other way either -- arrogance and cockiness is also unappealing! Actually, that's much, much worse... Ick.

"But, Carrie, what DO you like?"

I'm so glad you asked! Confidence and respect. Intelligence and curiosity. Banter. Gracious hosting. Cufflinks.

Thank you for your response, Carrie!!! I truly appreciate the women who provide these particular services.

I believe there are a lot of differences between nice-guy and doormat. Some nice-guys do lack confidence because of a perceived insecurity, but confidence is or can be a learned trait. The reason I asked "why so heartless" is that the more some of those less-than-confident men see someone over a period of time the more confidence they may find in themselves.

As a civilian, I noticed that when I was seeing someone sexually over a period of time, women appeared to poor out of the woodworks looking for a partner. The confidence of knowing I was getting mine was there because I wasn't on the prowl for someone new. I've talked to male friends who are married and still sexually active that get hit on by single and married women a lot.

That exuded confidence is a pretty powerful aphrodisiac and when a guy is getting hit on, those insecurities tend to melt away.

[DFW5Traveler]

*** double post ***

[xperiment]

Whew! Finally read this whole thread and I am tired. *Guzzles down Gatorade and does some ballistic stretches* Here comes my 20 million pesos...which comes out to like a super sized value meal.

This is my life story. Seen it....lived it...work in progress. Nice guys do finish last, mostly because they wear there emotions on their sleeves and lack the confidence to go for it and take charge. Let me explain. I was raised very much to respect women, which in itself is not bad. However top that off with religous moral compass, taboo things not to say that may "degrade women" (perceived by "nice folks), and be a gentleman (which is almost too much for todays standards). What happens here is that we respect them that we want them to be ok with our advances, that everything is acceptable. Instead of taking charge and going for it, nice guys hmm and how, beat around the bush etc. To a woman this shows weakness, insecurity and lack of confidence. So the guy never gets anywhere. Thinks hes bad with woman, has a hard time getting intimate or having ladies like him for more then "friends". What nice guys may seem to be crude and ungentlemanly such as touching the girls or saying something like "wow your hot" or Your ass looks great in those jeans", they will never say or feel uncomfortable doing. Whereas a bad boy doesn't care, mainly b/c he somewhat objectifies women for his own personal ego and/or pleasure. I learned this roughly about college, but by then my wiring was very permanent and took time to get out of. These are the traits that build nice-guy-itis. Not neccessarily wrong, just the wrong tools to get the job done.

As said in Risky Business, women can smell virgins. They can sense it. Not necessarily a virgin but they sense the lack of CONFIDENCE. They are not comfortable in their own skin around women. So yes its a slippery slope. If you do not get enough regurarly women sense your insecurities about how to deal with them. They want a man who can make them feel like a women not someone who fumbles around trying to figure out the rubix cube. Thus nice guys continue to fumble, lack experience, and continually fail. Whereas the jerks have experience, exude the confidence and keep getting it. The rich get richer the poor get poorer.

Now why are nice guys door mats. Again they were brought up to be a gentlemen and to please. This can be taken to far where they take no to little initiative in anything and constantly checks to see if shes ok. Being overly sensitive is not sexy or attractive. A great example, extreme of course but true, is in Bedazzled with Elizabeth Hurley and Brenden Frazer. Here Brenden a "nice guy introvert" wants this girl he cannot approach. Asks Elizabeth Hurley, sexy devil, grants him a wish of being sensitive and poetic. Well in this scenario, Brenden's dream girl, dumps him for a jerk because hes too mushy ALL THE TIME. By the way great movie to show all the sides of what we think women want and in turn, he gains the confidence to ask her out without being something he is not.

Nice guys fail in another way, THEY LISTEN. Not that listening is bad, but they hear what they say, but not what women mean or want. Women say they want a nice guy, sensitive and sweet. Nice guy thinks, "Yeah thats me, now look here at me." However bad guys don't listen. Their experience they know that women just want to be controlled, lead and attention. However where bad guys fail here, thats why women complain about them, is they get overly controlling and dont listen enough. There are other avenues in which women say things, but its not what they are wanting, but too much to discuss here (I already feel that I am writing too much).

I covered the basics here, there are more but the jist is just what was written above. So what does a nice guy have to do? Does he have to be a jerk to get women? NO! You don't have to give up your integrity, respect for women, or morale compass. However you have to learn more about women and what really attracts them to bad guys. Most of the posters have it right already. Bad boys exude confidence. But lets take it further. Now it may seem wierd but really I love human behaviour, body language, social psyhology, and tells (thats why I love poker). Therefore its has really been well most of my life but definitely since Highschool I have compiled skills, traits, and information to NOT FINISH LAST. So the information here is based on what I have learned and confirmed by other references either several online informations and me extracting information from ladies I have known over time.

Nice guys need to learn confidence. This can be gained from multiple different methods and combination of.

• Sports and fitness is a great way to get the Endorphines up and make you feel good about yourself.
• Environment: Spend time around other women, interact with them. Not neccessarily hook up. Just learn to chat casually with them. You will learn what make them laugh, how to get their attention, what really makes them tick.
• Practice, practice and practice. Learn to be more confident in body language, eye contact, speech, etc. This is not natural for everyone. However practice it till it becomes second nature.

Nice guys need to learn to not care so much. This is going to be hard for me to explain so excuse me if it doesn't come out crystal clear. When we care about a person or care about the outcome of an approach a date, etc, we tend to stress. When we focus too much on it we stress and get nervous, which then leads to showing less confident. Women smell this and will not be attracted by it. Nice guys need to learn to relax. Not care if she says no, not care if she doesn't reciprocate a call back or affection. When we seem not to care as much, it becomes more natural, like everyday, it shows "hey I've been here, I know what I am doing, you just follow." This also has another benefit. When you seem to care even less sometimes you are no longer the chaser but become chased. That will be explained next.

Nice guys need to learn to play hard to get. I know people may disagree with me here but it varies from each women on the degree. Nice guys are doormats. They put it all out there. "Hey I love you, you are my only, I adore you, I will follow the ends of the earth for you." Too much sappiness, there is a time and a place for that adoration, just learn to know when. Learn the art of flirting. Get their interest and then back away. Some people do this differently sometimes its a chase back and forth for the women, it varies widely. Gauge what she is like. But dont FLOP over like a . Women like a challenge and they want to know if they have the seduction, flirtiness, and/or brains to get you. Why do you think shows like the Bachelor works? They see competition from other women. It's really less about how much they will do for the guy they love, bur more about how they have the stuff to get a man away from these women. I have a friend who is extremely attractive. Have men falling over to get to her. She recently had a FWB that broke it off and starting to see another woman. She wasn't even into him, even complained the sex wasn't that good. For months she enamored over him, obssesed. Not because she loved him, but because she didn't have the control of dumping him and that he saw someone that she thought was below her. She wanted him so much more so she can get the control back.

Nice guys can still be nice. You dont have to be a jerk. Just learn that women want you to be nice, affectionate, and loving when alone or certain times, this will keep them loving you for the long haul. But women are attracted to confidence, humor, and that you are a "catch". Learn to be lead and take control in the bedroom. Understand that being a little naughty makes her feel wanted and like a woman.

I am sure there is stuff that I missed or said incoherently. However I dont want to put everyone to sleep reading this.