TFF 12 reason's why People vote Democrat...

[WyldemanATX]

@Booth you are not as emotional as the other liberal in here.... HE does this every time someone says or post anything that is opposing to his view. I think he is worse than Sup....

Come on everybody feed the world except the homeless in occupy whatever city....

[Booth]

Originally Posted by Wyldeman30

@Booth you are not as emotional as the other liberal in here.... HE does this every time someone says or post anything that is opposing to his view. I think he is worse than Sup....

Come on everybody feed the world except the homeless in occupy whatever city....

It occurred to me after I posted that maybe I wasn't the one you were talking to. As for "worse than Sup", let's not get carried away...

[F-Sharp]

D,

Would you PLEASE do us a favor and stop quoting quotes. It's a pain in the ass to have to fix your forum incompetence every time I am asked to respond. I am begging you! That said...

Originally Posted by DTorrchia

So what YOU are saying is that you support "income equality"? Pray tell how we are supposed to achieve this Nirvana? Here's the way it works in our country. If you're not happy with your job, how much it pays, the benefits it provides etc...you are free to change jobs. You are free to go back to school and get a degree. You are free to go to ITT Tech or any number of the hundreds of trade schools that are out there to pursue a skill set that WILL pay you more. Hundreds of thousands do so every year in our Country.

No, that's not what I am saying at all. What I am saying is that in the last 30 years, we've seen the gap between the top earners in this country and everyone else increase by 150%. We've also seen CEO to workers pay increase by 350%. All this has gone on while workers pay has remained relatively flat and more and more benefits have either gone away, or become more expensive. The wealth seemed to have trickled up now didn't it?

Free to change jobs? Perhaps. Free to go back to school, or free to go to school at all? Not a fucking chance pal. Do you have any idea what college costs these days? Your kid is still young, but wait until that child needs an advanced education. How do you plan on paying for it? For those of us fortunate enough to make a decent leaving, the logical choice is to start putting some money away early on. The other 55% of families living off of $45k a year have no such option. They're lucky enough to eat and keep a roof over their heads.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/03/ed...03college.html

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want my kids having to work 60 hours a week and starve just to get an education. It doesn't have to be this hard, and it never used to be.

Here's some stats:

"In 1990, 60 percent of all high school graduates went on to enter college. In addition, those aged 25 to 29 with Bachelor’s degrees rose from 23 percent to 29 percent.

Who goes to college depends greatly on the level of income of the family before college comes into the picture. Those who live in a low-income household are much less likely to go to college. Only six percent of low-income students earn a Bachelor’s degree by the time they are 24. In contrast, 51.3 percent of students from high-income homes go to college."

Why should an education be restriced to children from high-income homes? You don't find any elitism built in to this scenario? 55% may not seem unreasonable, but what about when that number becomes 75%? Things are not getting better.

Originally Posted by DTorrchia

A college education is out of reach?? Hmm, funny, my father was/is a blue collar worker making a very average salary. My mother put herself through college on his salary and with the myriad of grants offered by the government, university and some student loans. Got a 4 year degree, paid off the loans and made more money than she had before in her life.
I know that's a complex idea and people like you would LOVE for other people to believe that it can't be done by the average worker. No, it's much easier to convince them to camp out for weeks on end, NOT work and bemoan the evil Corporations of the World.

So what are you saying D? Every college-age kid who wants an education should just marry your father and he'll pay their way? I don't think your father's going to be too thrilled with the idea. Those grants are not as much as you think, and I personally don't want either of my kids graduating college mired in debt they'll be paying back for the next 15-20 years of their lives.

Originally Posted by DTorrchia

Once again, don't have a job that provides healthcare? Get one that does if you don't want to have a health savings account and pay as you go. There's options, that's what makes our Country great. Pursuing those options just takes a little bit of self-motivation and determination.

You live in a dream world friend. I have two college age kids, neither one would have health insurance if not for my plan and my current ability through the latest healthcare legislation to put them on it. It will be years before either one of them have enough education under their belts in order to a. get a job that offers an affordable plan, and b. the ability to actually afford said plan. Affordable healthcare in this country should be a right, not a priviledge graced upon only those who can afford it.

[DTorrchia]

Originally Posted by F-Sharp

D,


Free to change jobs? Perhaps. Free to go back to school, or free to go to school at all? Not a fucking chance pal. Do you have any idea what college costs these days? Your kid is still young, but wait until that child needs an advanced education. How do you plan on paying for it? For those of us fortunate enough to make a decent leaving, the logical choice is to start putting some money away early on. The other 55% of families living off of $45k a year have no such option. They're lucky enough to eat and keep a roof over their heads.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/03/ed...03college.html

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want my kids having to work 60 hours a week and starve just to get an education. It doesn't have to be this hard, and it never used to be.

Here's some stats:

"In 1990, 60 percent of all high school graduates went on to enter college. In addition, those aged 25 to 29 with Bachelor’s degrees rose from 23 percent to 29 percent.

Who goes to college depends greatly on the level of income of the family before college comes into the picture. Those who live in a low-income household are much less likely to go to college. Only six percent of low-income students earn a Bachelor’s degree by the time they are 24. In contrast, 51.3 percent of students from high-income homes go to college."

Why should an education be restriced to children from high-income homes? You don't find any elitism built in to this scenario? 55% may not seem unreasonable, but what about when that number becomes 75%? Things are not getting better.





So what are you saying D? Every college-age kid who wants an education should just marry your father and he'll pay their way? I don't think your father's going to be too thrilled with the idea. Those grants are not as much as you think, and I personally don't want either of my kids graduating college mired in debt they'll be paying back for the next 15-20 years of their lives.




You live in a dream world friend. I have two college age kids, neither one would have health insurance if not for my plan and my current ability through the latest healthcare legislation to put them on it. It will be years before either one of them have enough education under their belts in order to a. get a job that offers an affordable plan, and b. the ability to actually afford said plan. Affordable healthcare in this country should be a right, not a priviledge graced upon only those who can afford it.

The difference here is that you read articles in the NYT and take it for gospel and I deal in real life, not statistics. Your kids are going to college are they not? Okay, so you say that's because you saved up and you have an above average income. So you're an example of a well off family being able to afford to send their kids to college. Now, I gave you an example of a lower middle class family (my parents) that were able to afford late in my mother's life for her to go back to school. My dad was making around the $45,000 you claim isn't enough to afford college.
So I provided you with that example which you mock because it doesn't conveniently fit in your statistical data your touting from the NYT (really the source is immaterial to me since as I've mentioned, I give credence to real life experience not statistics).

I'm not sure where you're coming up with the age of my child but you got it wrong. I've raised one step-child that is currently IN college and my own child is 17. So I think I have a fairly good grasp on the current cost of college.
There's nothing wrong with starting off in Junior College, getting your core classes out of the way at a cheaper cost and then transferring to a University.
You say there's not that many grant and scholarship options out there? I'm not sure what planet you live on but almost everyone in my family has had the benefit of offsetting parts of their college tuition and book costs through various grants or scholarships. My step-child doesn't work 60 hours a week. She did get herself a job at a retail store ever since High School which she uses for expenses such as her car, clothes, etc. Her mother works a blue collar job and is a single parent and yet they're doing just fine.

I attended College and good old Uncle Sam paid for my tuition. That was in exchange for me serving in the active duty Army. Even a part time National Guard stint can help pay up to $50,000 dollars in college education.

Throw all the statistics you want out there, I've seen it with myself, my family and many of my friends, the large majority of whom hold blue collar jobs and none of them were unable to help their kids through college if the kids wanted to go. Like I said, yes, some may wind up with some debt but it wasn't unreasonable or nothing that couldn't be paid back in a reasonable amount of time. One of my friend's wife is a school teacher. She just finished her Masters and is working on her Doctorate now. That's on a middle class income!!

I've noticed that much of your anger seems to stem from all these statistics that you read. For every stat you throw out, I can provide you with a real life LIVING example of people that simply worked hard, used some common sense and motivation and achieved their goals in education. If anything, many of the grants are more readily available to LOW income families vs middle class families. I've seen that with my own eyes reviewing grant applications and the income limits listed on them.

No F-Sharp, you're not selling that can of goods here. Too many of us have personal experience on this topic. Too many of us have gone to school ourselves, have sent our children off to college and know the reality of the situation. No statistic from you is going to change that. I would have to say it's you that's spending too much time in your statistical dream world and not enough time dealing with real life experiences.

[F-Sharp]

Then I guess it's official. We no longer need to put any value on statistical data. All we really need are "real life LIVING" examples of DTorrchia's friends and family to guide us. I think reallity is a little overrated anyhoo, and ultimately it will save the trouble of having to look shit up all the time.

Originally Posted by DTorrchia

I've noticed that much of your anger seems to stem from all these statistics that you read. For every stat you throw out, I can provide you with a real life LIVING example of people that simply worked hard, used some common sense and motivation and achieved their goals in education.

[DTorrchia]

Originally Posted by F-Sharp

Then I guess it's official. We no longer need to put any value on statistical data. All we really need are "real life LIVING" examples of DTorrchia's friends and family to guide us. I think reallity is a little overrated anyhoo, and ultimately it will save the trouble of having to look shit up all the time.

So statistics=reality and real life experience=nothing?

Only in your twisted world would that even remotely make sense.

So typically Liberal. You yourself don't fall into the income bracket that you claim can't afford to send their kids to college. In other words, you have no first hand experience to back that claim up with. Then when someone speaks up that does have first hand experience with the income bracket in question and their ability to achieve an education with those resources, you mock them? So let me see if I got this straight.....You're trying to speak up for the middle class and below but when the middle class themselves speak up your response basically is......shut up you're messing up my statistics?!!! ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!! Way to go F-Sharp, stay classy my friend!

[DTorrchia]

Originally Posted by F-Sharp

Then I guess it's official. We no longer need to put any value on statistical data. All we really need are "real life LIVING" examples of DTorrchia's friends and family to guide us. I think reallity is a little overrated anyhoo, and ultimately it will save the trouble of having to look shit up all the time.

Okay Okay, just for you....I'll bite. I'll play the ridiculous numbers game with you DESPITE you not having any first hand experience in the very income bracket you're trying to whine about.

So here's some quick hard statistics from the National Center of Education Statistics....hope that's a qualified enough source for you F-Sharp. Our Government seems to think it is.

"Enrollment in degree-granting post-secondary institutions increased by 9 percent between 1989 and 1999. Between 1999 and 2009, enrollment increased 38 percent, from 14.8 million to 20.4 million. Much of the growth between 1999 and 2009 was in full-time enrollment; the number of full-time students rose 45 percent, while the number of part-time students rose 28 percent. During the same time period, the number of enrolled females rose 40 percent, while the number of enrolled males rose 35 percent"

"Post-baccalaureate enrollment had been steady at about 1.6 million in the late 1970s and early 1980s, but rose about 73 percent between 1985 and 2009."

"The percentage of college students who are Hispanic, Asian/Pacific Islander, and Black has been increasing. From 1976 to 2009, the percentage of Hispanic students rose from 3 percent to 12 percent, the percentage of Asian/Pacific Islander students rose from 2 percent to 7 percent, and the percentage of Black students rose from 9 percent to 14 percent. During the same period, the percentage of White students fell from 83 percent to 62 percent"

What??? An overall 38% increase between 1999 and 2009? Yep, I can see your point F-Sharp, College most definitely seems out of reach these days....or...how did YOU put it?
"Free to go back to school, or free to go to school at all? Not a fucking chance pal."

Hmmm, seems that despite your denials....enrollment in Colleges is going UP not down.
What's that old saying F-Sharp? Lies, damned lies and statistics? Wonder which one you'll claim the above numbers from the National Center for Education Statistics fall under?
Minority enrollment is up, overall enrollment is up.....but according to F-Sharp there's not a chance anyone that falls in the $45,000 income bracket can afford to go to school. He's ignored first hand experience of posters and now he'll begin the long and twisted game of digging for statistics to refute the above statistics to prove his statistics are more correct than any other poster's statistics. So get ready folks for the aerial bombardment of numbers to begin....

[harkontume]

One wonders why no one connects the dots between sky rocketing Tuition and Fees and the trillion dollars dumped into student loans.

One also wonders why none of the protests are directed at these institutions of higher learning for increasing cost exponentially higher then inflation. Also with no explanation or justification.
ex.. When gas goes up Big Oil is blamed
When drugs go up Big Pharmaceuticals are blamed


I would present a hypothesis that when one throws a trillion dollars into the demand side the producers of the product will take advantage of that and raise prices.

[WyldemanATX]

The more money that is offered for title 4 funds the more all schools will charge in tuition. It is a guaranteed increase in revenues every year. They will also continue to graduate students for fields that the job markets are flooded.

[Booth]

Originally Posted by harkontume

One wonders why no one connects the dots between sky rocketing Tuition and Fees and the trillion dollars dumped into student loans.

One also wonders why none of the protests are directed at these institutions of higher learning for increasing cost exponentially higher then inflation. Also with no explanation or justification.
ex.. When gas goes up Big Oil is blamed
When drugs go up Big Pharmaceuticals are blamed


I would present a hypothesis that when one throws a trillion dollars into the demand side the producers of the product will take advantage of that and raise prices.

Fire Mack Brown! Occupy the coeds!!

[F-Sharp]

Hispanics now make up 15.4% of our population.

Asians now make up 5% of our population.

Blacks, 13.5%.

Do you honestly expect the amount of students attending school to decrease as population increases? Do you not expect the minority populations attending school to grow as their population grows?

"Enrollment in degree-granting post-secondary institutions increased by 9 percent between 1989 and 1999"

Care to take a guess how much the population of the United States rose between 1989 and 1999? That's right genius, 9%.

"During the same period, the percentage of White students fell from 83 percent to 62 percent"

I'm most certain if you check those statistics you refuse to pay attention to, you'll find that the white population of the United States has not decreased by 21% since 1979. What exactly does that tell you? White people are getting better jobs and not needing higher education, or more and more of them can no longer afford it? Now, wake the hell up.

Honestly D, how have you managed to live so long? Get back to me when you're actually making an honest effort to dispute something.

Originally Posted by DTorrchia

"The percentage of college students who are Hispanic, Asian/Pacific Islander, and Black has been increasing. From 1976 to 2009, the percentage of Hispanic students rose from 3 percent to 12 percent, the percentage of Asian/Pacific Islander students rose from 2 percent to 7 percent, and the percentage of Black students rose from 9 percent to 14 percent. During the same period, the percentage of White students fell from 83 percent to 62 percent"

[WyldemanATX]

Not everyone can be the Boss....

What the fuck does any of this have to do with the top 12 reasons people vote for Democrats????

[DTorrchia]

Originally Posted by F-Sharp

Hispanics now make up 15.4% of our population.

Asians now make up 5% of our population.

Blacks, 13.5%.

Do you honestly expect the amount of students attending school to decrease as population increases? Do you not expect the minority populations attending school to grow as their population grows?

"Enrollment in degree-granting post-secondary institutions increased by 9 percent between 1989 and 1999"

Care to take a guess how much the population of the United States rose between 1989 and 1999? That's right genius, 9%.

"During the same period, the percentage of White students fell from 83 percent to 62 percent"

I'm most certain if you check those statistics you refuse to pay attention to, you'll find that the white population of the United States has not decreased by 21% since 1979. What exactly does that tell you? White people are getting better jobs and not needing higher education, or more and more of them can no longer afford it? Now, wake the hell up.

Honestly D, how have you managed to live so long? Get back to me when you're actually making an honest effort to dispute something.

Ahhh, and you're twisted little game of numbers begins. .....So are YOU saying that a 38% increase in college enrollment from 1999-2009 is due to the same amount of growth in population during that same time period? Really? A 38% population growth in the United States in 10 years? LOL, ok, F-Sharp, anything you say! LOL

Hint: U.S. Census population in 2000-281,421,906
U.S. Census population in 2010-308,745,533

Don't try to backpedal from your original argument now F-Sharp. You stated that lower and middle class income families can't afford to send their kids to college. Now you want to say that the increase in their enrollment is proportionate to their growth in population? LOL, you don't even understand the fallacy of that statement in regards to your original argument.
Good job!

[theaustinescorts]

Whatever faults the Democrats have they pale by comparison to the monterous evils of the GOP.

The Republican party began as an amalgum of anti-catholic/zenophobs who formed an alliance with anti-slavery zealot followers of John Brown.

They elected an anti-slavery zealot masquerading as a moderate, Lincoln, who then engineered an illegal war which distroyed half the country.

Because the Republicans won the civil war they became the powerful party in the north, and became the party of the plutocratic elite.

Unfortunately a party of the top 10% will never win elections, so they "reached out" to anyone else who would have them....evangelical theocrats, kooky right wingers, etc.

Today it's these kooks who form the base of the party.

[DTorrchia]

Originally Posted by theaustinescorts

Unfortunately a party of the top 10% will never win elections, so they "reached out" to anyone else who would have them....evangelical theocrats, kooky right wingers, etc.

Today it's these kooks who form the base of the party.

Because we all know that ACORN, MoveOn.org, Occupy Wall Street/America, many of the various Unions, PETA, etc etc that help make up the Democratic Party don't have their fair share of "kooky left wingers" in them.