Trump Determined to be a Fraud

[Ducbutter]

To address the OP, Trump is most certainly a fraudster but the only thing this ruling proves is the judge has a political agenda.
What legal precedent allows any judge to unilaterally determine any real estate value?

[Salty Again]

... Especially since the Judge grossly undervalued Mar-a-Lago.
That banks will tell you that... and Forbes...

... I gotta wonder just how much the State of New York
has "over-valued" and "under-valued" certain propertys
when it has sold them.

... Surely reckon we'll be findin' THAT out soon.

#### Salty

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by Ducbutter

Were the properties in question not appraised by an independent third party?

I don’t think so.

https://reason.com/2023/09/27/trumps...d-for-reality/

[1blackman1]

Originally Posted by Ducbutter

To address the OP, Trump is most certainly a fraudster but the only thing this ruling proves is the judge has a political agenda.
What legal precedent allows any judge to unilaterally determine any real estate value?

lol. I suppose you’re kidding. That’s exactly how lawsuits work. Side one presents evidence. Side two presents evidence. Both sides make arguments. The judge or jury unilaterally determines who’s more credible and who’s correct. I fail to understand how that legal precedent went over your head.

[Jackie S]

Originally Posted by 1blackman1

lol. I suppose you’re kidding. That’s exactly how lawsuits work. Side one presents evidence. Side two presents evidence. Both sides make arguments. The judge or jury unilaterally determines who’s more credible and who’s correct. I fail to understand how that legal precedent went over your head.

The defense will probably present countless cases of over evaluations and under evaluations to the Jury, helping them understand how the real estate market works, especially in States such as New York.

In the end, nobody held a gun to the banks head and said …….”give him the money”.

Caveat Emptor.

Besides, even if a Trump hating jury finds against Trump, an appeals court will throw it out.

I’m sure Trump’s legal team is already digging into this Judges past, and present activities.

It would not surprise me if tomorrows headline reads…….”51 appraisal experts determined that Trump over valued hi assets”.

[FesteredUncle]

Originally Posted by 1blackman1

Side two presents evidence..

I am not aware that this happened in this particular case. Got any evidence or link to that?


This is the judge in the case:



"Arthur Engoron, an elected civil Justice of the New York County Supreme Court, issued a rare summary judgment that concluded that New York Attorney General Letitia James proved her case before the defense mounted its own."

[1blackman1]

That’s how a summary judgment works. You file a motion and memorandum, a list of uncontested facts, a list of contested facts, attach affidavits, depositions and other documentary evidence. The opposing side does similarly. The judge decides whether the information presented establishes the facts and law sufficient that there are no material facts requiring trial and either renders a decision or says - this needs to go to a jury.

In this case the judge made that decision based on what was presented by both sides and produced a 45 page decision.

[Levianon17]

Originally Posted by 1blackman1

Actually, he just a fraud. No crazy conspiracy.

It's nothing but your wild imagination.

[1blackman1]

Ok, kinda like my belief in the holocaust. I understand why you see things different.

[Tiny]

You can read the judgement here,

https://www.msnbc.com/deadline-white...pdf-rcna117499

Skip down to page 20 to get to the basis for the judgement.

The document addresses several questions or points brought up by esteemed board members.

Originally Posted by Ducbutter

Were the properties in question not appraised by an independent third party?

Some of the properties were indeed appraised by independent third parties. The problem is that the appraisals, at least those referenced by the judge, came in at much lower values than what Trump indicated they were worth on his Statements of Financial Condition (SFC's) that he submitted to banks. See for example "Seven Springs Estate" on page 22 of the judgement. The highest of multiple appraisals indicated the estimated value was $56.6 million, while Trump said the value was $291 million on his SFC.

Originally Posted by 1blackman1

Yes, if the judgment is upheld, he’ll have to pay it. If he doesn’t he’ll be held in contempt accruing further fines. And then the state will proceed with a collection through seizure of of these overvalued properties and send them to sheriff sale until they collect 250 mil.

Did you get this from reading the judgement and the plaintiff's motion for partial summary judgement? Or from MSNBC? (Just kidding, about MSNBC.)

The judge granted the Attorney General's motion for partial summary judgement, "to the extent of finding" Donald J. Trump et al "liable as a matter of law for persistent violations of Executive Law 63(12)." The judge does not appear to have agreed with a specified dollar amount for the penalty or damages. Now I haven't read the AG's motion and I know about .0001% as much about court judgements as you do, but unless you've actually looked at the court filings, would suspect the amount Trump will owe hasn't been settled yet.

Originally Posted by Jackie S

Could this be a crime without a victim?

Yes, definitely. The judge actually addresses that and says it doesn't matter, that the banks made money on the loans and Trump didn't default.

The judge ordered that the New York business certificates of any entity controlled by Trump be cancelled. And within 10 days of the order, the parties (presumably the Attorney General and Trump) must recommend "the names of no more than three potential independent receivers to manage the dissolution of the canceled LLC's."

That last bit sounds harsh to me. Hell if I know though. Al Capone got eleven years for tax evasion, which sounds harsh too, although when you add in all the other things he did, he got off lightly. Trump's nowhere near in the same league as Al Capone though. And while I believe he deserves far more than a slap on the hand, he doesn't deserve to have his businesses dissolved either.

Jackie brought up the political angle, which I believe has merit. New York, the self-proclaimed financial capitol of the world, has fined big banks, including foreign banks, billions for violations that didn't deserve fines anywhere close to what they had to pay. That's probably popular in New York. While the consumers and customers in places all over the world are the ones who deserve compensation, New Yorkers reap the benefits of the huge fines. Similarly, in addition to New York, Trump is being busted for loans to his businesses in various states in the U.S. as well as Scotland. Trump's not popular in New York, so undoubtedly the majority of the population is in the judge's corner.

One other item, if you'd like to know exactly what law Trump violated, it's here, in part 12 of New York Executive Law 63,

https://codes.findlaw.com/ny/executive-law/exc-sect-63/

The law is kind of nebulous. It makes no mention of lying to your bank, but rather of engaging in repeated fraudulent or illegal acts.

[Ducbutter]

Originally Posted by Tiny

Some of the properties were indeed appraised by independent third parties. The problem is that the appraisals, at least those referenced by the judge, came in at much lower values than what Trump indicated they were worth on his Statements of Financial Condition (SFC's) that he submitted to banks. See for example "Seven Springs Estate" on page 22 of the judgement. The highest of multiple appraisals indicated the estimated value was $56.6 million, while Trump said the value was $291 million on his SFC.

Yes, I mistakenly assumed that the appraisals would have fallen within some reasonable distance of Trumps claims of value and that the judge simply overrode the appraisals. Which is why I posed the question about legal precedence to do so. That was not the case.
My bad.
Good article from Reason, BTW.

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by FesteredUncle

I am not aware that this happened in this particular case. Got any evidence or link to that?


This is the judge in the case:



"Arthur Engoron, an elected civil Justice of the New York County Supreme Court, issued a rare summary judgment that concluded that New York Attorney General Letitia James proved her case before the defense mounted its own."

Slap some lipstick on that judge and dye his hair red and he'd look a lot like your avatar.

[Levianon17]

Originally Posted by 1blackman1

Ok, kinda like my belief in the holocaust. I understand why you see things different.

You can't prove that either.

[texassapper]

Originally Posted by Jackie S

So the Judge doesn’t think Trump’s holdings were not as valuable as he claimed in order to secure loans.

This charade will end up in an appeals court where Trump will win. Why? Simple.

He got the loans

It's almost as if the banks had some fiduciary duty to validate the value of his assets.

I wonder if the bank would take my assertions of net worth at face value.. lol

[FesteredUncle]

Seems to me that the main fraudsters in the current case are the AG and Judge. Frankly, I don't see their qualifications to determine commercial real estate valuations.

It would appear they used Zillow . com to arrive at their evaluation of up to 19-$24M. However, one must also remember that the same Zillow claimed Trump xfered the property valued at $420M to his son.Then later said ooops, in tiny-small print and updated their website to no fan fare..

And then there are the details. Zillow is showing the property as 5,200-ish square feet in size. Coincidentally, a nearby property of about the same size with 5 bedroom recently sold for $14M and the property adjacent to Mar-a-Lago is a 2 acre tract with no beach access and no improvements (buildings) listed for $200M.

In review, Mar-a-Lago is on 17-20 acres, has water on two sides, with 2 acres of beaches and over 56,000 sq ft, 55 bedrooms, 38 bathrooms and an 1,800 sq ft dinning room, is a commercial parcel (business) and so much more. Oh sure! Probably just typos in the current Zillow listing. Yeah, right!

Regardless, if I were going into a court case involving the valuation of commercial real estate, I would bring in a world renowned and highly successful developer of commercial real estate, ala Donald J Trump, over two dick-head partisan hacks with zero knowledge in real estate or real estate transactions any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Just remember, it is not a bank or insurance company or purchaser of any real estate bringing suit here. It is brought by two dick-head partisan hacks with zero knowledge in real estate or real estate transactions.