Delays and cancellations, Biden is killing the airline industry

[oilfieldace]

You doesn’t mean you. His bullet points were spot on.

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by Lucas McCain

This thread reminds me of the friendly beer/bar discussions I had with my Democrat friends in 2008 when they were blaming Bush for everything. I just said, "what the fuck are you blaming Bush for? Do you think he controls Washington Mutual, Lehman Brothers, AIG and all of the other institutions that decided to bet on greed and lost?"

I fly damn near every week for work. I get from point A to Point B with the same usual hassles that come with that mode of transportation. Cancellations and delays are part of the process... you can't blame Biden for that just like you can't blame Bush for the banking industry... some of you guys wrongly assume the president has way more power than he actually has.

These big airline companies are public. A president does not have a fucking thing to do with how they run their business. The CEOs of American, Delta or Southwest do not have as part of their job duties to answer to Joe Biden. Those duties are to answer to the Board of Directors and the shareholders.

In general I agree with your belief that we give way too much credit and blame to presidents. You're spot on about 2008. And yes, the airlines, COVID, and labor shortages play a big part in the delays and cancellations. As does the preference of many Americans for low air fares over service, on time performance and the like.

Still, there's no doubt that the Biden administration and Department of Transportation could push back on the air traffic controllers union, and push through modernization of the FAA. That would help a lot. Or we could privatize and regulate the system, like Canada, the UK, Australia and Germany. Biden's not inclined for political reasons to do any of that in a way that would displease the union.

Maybe it's my imagination, but delays and flight cancellations are a whole lot more common than they used to be. American gave me the option several years ago of spending 18 hours on hold or receiving a call back. And I had elite status! And I literally saw a 200 foot line at a United customer service counter this last winter. Admittedly that was during bad weather.

[VitaMan]

Originally Posted by oilfieldace

You doesn’t mean you. His bullet points were spot on.

Wrong. And you didn't carefully read point C.

[Why_Yes_I_Do]

Actually, it will get much worse and soon and for a long time and it will be very, very costly, i.e. expensive and will require a whole lot more of other peoples money. Just like it always does. Eh Comrade?

Exclusive—Captain Sherry Walker: Keep the Most Experienced Pilots in the Cockpit
by Sherry Walker 19 Jul 2023

After the biggest air travel debacle of 2023 that culminated in the Fourth of July, Congress is debating the Federal Aviation Administration Reauthorization Act. What should be a “once every five years” bipartisan effort to ensure public safety and the efficiency of the National Airspace System is, instead, turning into a political showdown.

Acts of God aside, a leading reason for most flight delays is lack of available manpower. When weather strikes, pilots routinely find themselves diverted or delayed. Some end up in the wrong cities and cannot get to work or they arrive so late that they cannot legally continue without an intervening rest period. The solution is obviously more pilots. But how?

For years, industry experts have warned of a pending pilot shortage. The military is not producing as many pilots as during wartime. Civilian flight training costs can top hundreds of thousands of dollars. Many pilots who were furloughed during the pandemic found employment in other fields or began their own businesses and have not returned to the skies.

Of those remaining, it is estimated over 5,000 will reach mandatory retirement age (65) in the next two years. Archaic, discriminatory, and arbitrary age-based pilot retirement rules are founded in the days when pilots had large company pension plans. After the round of airline bankruptcies post-911, most defined pension plans were scrapped. Yet the age limit remained.

In 2007, the pilot unions fought to raise the mandatory retirement age from 60 to 65. Today, 11 countries have age limits of at least 67, and no studies have found any safety issues. Keep in mind, depending on age, every U.S. airline pilot must pass a rigorous semi-annual flight physical. As society grows healthier at more mature ages, maintaining an arbitrary retirement age cannot be scientifically defended. We can find no cognitive studies that substantiate any claims that raising the pilot retirement age to 67 would be detrimental to safety. In fact, no passenger fatalities are credited to a pilot suffering an in-flight incapacitation as the result of their age in the history of American aviation.

Instead, the flying public would benefit immensely from having more of the most seasoned pilots in the industry with their hands on the controls in the cockpit, leading the way to better performance and greater customer satisfaction.

Frankly, it is hypocritical and discriminatory to suggest anyone is unable to perform their duties simply based on a calendar date. Members of Congress do not magically lose their ability to do their jobs when they celebrate their 65th birthdays. Our research indicates 70 U.S. Senators and 136 Members of the House of Representatives are over the age of 65 and would therefore fall under this birthday-based term limit. Another 12 House Members are turning 65 within the next year. Over 40 percent–some 218 members of the House and Senate–would be forced to abandon their positions if age 65 were the cutoff for their careers. Keep in mind, the leader of the free world, President Joe Biden, is an octogenarian. All this is to say, term limits based simply on age are discriminatory and foolhardy, as evidenced by our national leadership.

Pandering to its younger members and pitting them against their most senior members, the nation’s largest pilot union, the Air Line Pilot Association (ALPA), is fighting to maintain age 65 retirement. While big labor unions toss around millions of dollars of PAC money to prolong the pilot shortage and drive up wages, the American people slept on airport cots over the Fourth of July weekend. Perhaps ALPA should forgo the money and instead return to its safety-based roots and demand only the most qualified and experienced pilots fly you and your families.

In the end, you can choose your doctor. But you cannot choose your pilot. Nowhere is experience more important than in these two cases. Arguably though, your pilot can hurt a lot more people in a lot less time. Thus, experience matters. If given a choice, we bet the passengers on the Miracle on the Hudson flight would choose Captain Sullenberger again, even today. Yet, Sully was forced to retire a mere seven years after that fateful day due to this outdated policy.

Some suggest the solution to the pilot shortage is not raising the age, but rather, lowering qualification standards. The U.S. has enjoyed 13 consecutive, accident-free years because of hard-fought legislation that increased pilot minimum qualifications as a result of the 2009 Colgan Air 3407 accident in Buffalo, New York....

Didja catch the reach around to the Unions from Mayor Petie-Pie?

Also (last paragraph posted) - Did you hear the clarion call? "lowering qualification standards." Paging DEI. Is there some DEI in da house? Your plane is ready!

Welcome aboard. Safe travels...

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by Why_Yes_I_Do

Actually, it will get much worse and soon and for a long time and it will be very, very costly, i.e. expensive and will require a whole lot more of other peoples money. Just like it always does. Eh Comrade?
Didja catch the reach around to the Unions from Mayor Petie-Pie?

Also (last paragraph posted) - Did you hear the clarion call? "lowering qualification standards." Paging DEI. Is there some DEI in da house? Your plane is ready!

Welcome aboard. Safe travels...

Good post WYID. I didn't know that. Given that there's a pilot and co-pilot on every flight, and given pilots have to pass rigorous physicals, you'd think they'd lighten up somewhat on the retirement age. I wonder why the union is against that. It doesn't make sense.

[Why_Yes_I_Do]

Originally Posted by Tiny

Good post WYID. I didn't know that. Given that there's a pilot and co-pilot on every flight, and given pilots have to pass rigorous physicals, you'd think they'd lighten up somewhat on the retirement age. I wonder why the union is against that. It doesn't make sense.

I like me some random thoughts:

• Costs hundreds of thousands of $$ and many years to train a pilot in the private sector given the rigorous standards to be met
• There are loads of existing regulations governing flight safety, which include consecutive hours worked etc.
• The military is just not cranking them out because, technically, we are not at war ATM
• Psssst, the military has a YUGE recruitment problem these days
• Ukraine
• WW III

Anyway, I would avoid thinking about those and just find a way to blame Trump. Wait! I think I got it: Trump didn't start any hot wars and deescalated a few. It's all Trump's fault. So easy even a cave man can do it.

[Expresso Jim]

Lordy Lordy. Where in God’s name did you get the bogus BS that the airline industry was a well oiled machine under Trump? Get out of your bubble. They almost went belly up and received a multi-billion dollar bailout to survive the pandemic under Trump. And even given the handout, they still did it on the backs of their workforce. Can’t find pilots now? How many did they fire? Flight attendants? Same question. And unlike the auto industry in 2008, instead of paying the government back, they reported record profits. So, no it isn’t Biden or the unions. It was corporation greed.

Originally Posted by oilfieldace

Again with unproven “facts”. Besides it pales in comparison to someone’s asinine post. At least mine makes sense , after all the buck stops in the White House, it’s happening on his watch ergo it’s his fault, isn’t that the way you believe? LMAO

The airline industry was running like a well oiled (3 in 1 brand) Singer sewing machine when a grown up (D J TRUMP) occupied the oval..

[Charley3]

Airlines have been F-ed up for years. Only business where you can sell more seats then you have. You can’t even do that with theatre or sports tix, but you can pull someone off a plane because you oversold?
Another is backing away from the gate with no intention of flying anywhere. That way they have you captured until (or if) whatever the problem is gets solved.
They also do this in part because pilots and flight attendants don’t get paid until the plane leaves the gate.

[VitaMan]

The premise is false.

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by Why_Yes_I_Do

I like me some random thoughts:

• Costs hundreds of thousands of $$ and many years to train a pilot in the private sector given the rigorous standards to be met
• There are loads of existing regulations governing flight safety, which include consecutive hours worked etc.
• The military is just not cranking them out because, technically, we are not at war ATM
• Psssst, the military has a YUGE recruitment problem these days
• Ukraine
• WW III

A

WYID, This is going on with air controllers (ATC's) too. The mandatory retirement age is 56. You may recall that United Airlines recently complained that ATC shortages in the New York area were holding up flights throughout their system. I can't find a link, but I read that you have a situation in New York where the system is not only understaffed, but a large percentage of ATC's are new, unseasoned hires, and there aren't enough veterans around. That could be partly overcome by raising the retirement age a bit, maybe paying people generously to come out of retirement until more can be trained. More investment in our ATC system would pay off in spades. The cost would be small compared to the value of time lost by passengers due to delayed and cancelled flights. Or, perhaps better yet privatize and regulate it like Canada, Australia, the UK, Germany and other countries have done.

Here's an excerpt from the Wall Street Journal that may be of interest,

The FAA acknowledges that the New York area is at about 54% of its staffing target, versus the 80% average in other parts of the country. The New York area’s John F. Kennedy, LaGuardia and Newark airports weathered more than 41,000 delays related to staffing shortages in summer 2022....

The FAA years ago proposed redesigning New York’s air space, to include combining facilities to make controllers more efficient. That project crashed and burned thanks to political parochialism. New York Democrat Chuck Schumer in press releases touts his “fierce advocacy” in fighting an integrated facility that might have moved air-traffic controllers from Long Island and allowed more efficient staffing. He’s pandering to the flight-controllers union, and it’s too bad there’s no union representing Americans sitting in seat 36B.

This illustrates why the U.S. would benefit from spinning off air-traffic control from government, as countries such as Canada have done to salutary effect. Air-traffic control could rely on user fees, instead of taxes, and not be hostage to special-interest politics.

The FAA has also struggled to upgrade technology. A classic example is controllers passing around paper strips that track a flight. An FAA plan to roll out electronic flight strips at 49 major airports isn’t set to finish until 2029. Technology such as 360-degree cameras obviate the need to put every controller in a tower at the end of the runway. But the FAA has shown little interest in remote towers."

https://www.wsj.com/articles/airport...article_inline

Now, here are excerpts from a couple of subsequent letters to the editor,

As a former air-traffic controller, I can attest that the controllers union, Natca, along with the incompetent Federal Aviation Administration, implement policies that exacerbate the shortages of controllers. The training backlog is due to the unnecessary snail’s pace of the training. It shouldn’t take three to five years to train a controller. In my training, I spent half the time in a classroom—awaiting training.

NATCA also pushes for air-traffic control facilities to be understaffed, so it can strong-arm the FAA for more overtime and favorable work conditions. The FAA and the union, not the airline, deserve the blame for your flight delay or cancellation.


https://www.wsj.com/articles/flight-...article_inline

Air-traffic controllers have mandatory retirement at age 56. With in-depth physicals, that could be safely extended at least five years. You can be the president, a justice or a senator past 85, but a controller only until 56? This is a government-created problem.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/air-tra...elays-f9af53d0

From CNN, which is quoting the IATA, which admittedly is biased,

Passengers this summer are still facing “unacceptable delays and disruptions” because of a shortage of air traffic controllers in North America. The IATA, an industry association that represents the world’s airlines, is blaming that squarely on “poor planning” by the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) and NAV Canada, the Canadian air navigation services provider. But outdated technology, airline staffing issues and bad weather are also playing into recent air traffic meltdowns, CNN has previously reported.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/22/trave...ays/index.html

[Why_Yes_I_Do]

A variation of the burnt toast affair.

So there you are on your local provider board in search of a great companion for Friday night. You did all the research and found someone that looks like a young, Cuban version of Cristie Brinkley and are looking forward to the encounter. You don your freshly pressed hazmat suit, goggles, face shield and rubber boots and gloves and off you go.

You notice her door is slightly ajar and ring the bell. She calls out and says come on in as she is just getting out of the shower. She says to leave the tip on the counter and to get undressed and into bed. Hmmm.. at any moment a fresh smelling hottie should join you. All of a sudden a naked Lizzo comes out of the bathroom and flops on the bed, which nearly ejects you to the ceiling.

You leap to your feet and head for the hills thinking, I hope ChungTran doesn't find out you're messing around in his house. In your haste, you slam your big toe against n the bed post. It hurts like hell, but you keep grabbing up you gear and running towards the door. You open it so fast, it slams on your stubbed big toe. With tears welling in your eyes, you make your way down the stairs and step on a rusty nail with the same big toe, but you keep moving and finally make it home.

The next day you go to a college football game with your big toe all bandaged up.and hobbling a bit. When your team scores a touchdown everyone leaps to their feet, except you, to cheer and the fat slob sitting next to you lands squarely on your mangled big toe.

The police detective just can't understand why you pummeled the bejesus out a guy for simply stepping on your big toe.

There is your airline management and control these days - a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma and managed by the unions, Petie-Pie and the rest of big gubmint.

Originally Posted by Tiny

WYID, This is going on with air controllers (ATC's) too. The mandatory retirement age is 56. You may recall that United Airlines recently complained that ATC shortages in the New York area were holding up flights throughout their system. I can't find a link, but I read that you have a situation in New York where the system is not only understaffed, but a large percentage of ATC's are new, unseasoned hires, and there aren't enough veterans around. That could be partly overcome by raising the retirement age a bit, maybe paying people generously to come out of retirement until more can be trained. More investment in our ATC system would pay off in spades. The cost would be small compared to the value of time lost by passengers due to delayed and cancelled flights. Or, perhaps better yet privatize and regulate it like Canada, Australia, the UK, Germany and other countries have done.

Here's an excerpt from the Wall Street Journal that may be of interest,

The FAA acknowledges that the New York area is at about 54% of its staffing target, versus the 80% average in other parts of the country. The New York area’s John F. Kennedy, LaGuardia and Newark airports weathered more than 41,000 delays related to staffing shortages in summer 2022....

The FAA years ago proposed redesigning New York’s air space, to include combining facilities to make controllers more efficient. That project crashed and burned thanks to political parochialism. New York Democrat Chuck Schumer in press releases touts his “fierce advocacy” in fighting an integrated facility that might have moved air-traffic controllers from Long Island and allowed more efficient staffing. He’s pandering to the flight-controllers union, and it’s too bad there’s no union representing Americans sitting in seat 36B.

This illustrates why the U.S. would benefit from spinning off air-traffic control from government, as countries such as Canada have done to salutary effect. Air-traffic control could rely on user fees, instead of taxes, and not be hostage to special-interest politics.

The FAA has also struggled to upgrade technology. A classic example is controllers passing around paper strips that track a flight. An FAA plan to roll out electronic flight strips at 49 major airports isn’t set to finish until 2029. Technology such as 360-degree cameras obviate the need to put every controller in a tower at the end of the runway. But the FAA has shown little interest in remote towers."

https://www.wsj.com/articles/airport...article_inline

Now, here are excerpts from a couple of subsequent letters to the editor,

As a former air-traffic controller, I can attest that the controllers union, Natca, along with the incompetent Federal Aviation Administration, implement policies that exacerbate the shortages of controllers. The training backlog is due to the unnecessary snail’s pace of the training. It shouldn’t take three to five years to train a controller. In my training, I spent half the time in a classroom—awaiting training.

NATCA also pushes for air-traffic control facilities to be understaffed, so it can strong-arm the FAA for more overtime and favorable work conditions. The FAA and the union, not the airline, deserve the blame for your flight delay or cancellation.


https://www.wsj.com/articles/flight-...article_inline

Air-traffic controllers have mandatory retirement at age 56. With in-depth physicals, that could be safely extended at least five years. You can be the president, a justice or a senator past 85, but a controller only until 56? This is a government-created problem.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/air-tra...elays-f9af53d0

From CNN, which is quoting the IATA, which admittedly is biased,

Passengers this summer are still facing “unacceptable delays and disruptions” because of a shortage of air traffic controllers in North America. The IATA, an industry association that represents the world’s airlines, is blaming that squarely on “poor planning” by the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) and NAV Canada, the Canadian air navigation services provider. But outdated technology, airline staffing issues and bad weather are also playing into recent air traffic meltdowns, CNN has previously reported.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/22/trave...ays/index.html

[Jacuzzme]

Originally Posted by SpeedRacerXXX

The military is NOT the single largest producer of pilots.

"Today, it is estimated that about one-third of airline pilots have military backgrounds, a sharp reduction that can be attributed to multiple factors."

I know for a fact that Delta pulls most of its pilots from Embry-Riddle, and mechanics from PIA and some other small aviation schools. They don’t particularly like military trained pilots and flight crews as they’re harder to mold into what they want. They have recently started recruiting more pilots from the service, offering contracts up to 2 years before their separation dates when it used to be 6 months max.

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by Why_Yes_I_Do

A variation of the burnt toast affair.

So there you are on your local provider board in search of a great companion for Friday night. You did all the research and found someone that looks like a young, Cuban version of Cristie Brinkley and are looking forward to the encounter. You don your freshly pressed hazmat suit, goggles, face shield and rubber boots and gloves and off you go.

You notice her door is slightly ajar and ring the bell. She calls out and says come on in as she is just getting out of the shower. She says to leave the tip on the counter and to get undressed and into bed. Hmmm.. at any moment a fresh smelling hottie should join you. All of a sudden a naked Lizzo comes out of the bathroom and flops on the bed, which nearly ejects you to the ceiling.

You leap to your feet and head for the hills thinking, I hope ChungTran doesn't find out you're messing around in his house. In your haste, you slam your big toe against n the bed post. It hurts like hell, but you keep grabbing up you gear and running towards the door. You open it so fast, it slams on your stubbed big toe. With tears welling in your eyes, you make your way down the stairs and step on a rusty nail with the same big toe, but you keep moving and finally make it home.

The next day you go to a college football game with your big toe all bandaged up.and hobbling a bit. When your team scores a touchdown everyone leaps to their feet, except you, to cheer and the fat slob sitting next to you lands squarely on your mangled big toe.

The police detective just can't understand why you pummeled the bejesus out a guy for simply stepping on your big toe.

There is your airline management and control these days - a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma and managed by the unions, Petie-Pie and the rest of big gubmint.

Funny! No way I'd do sloppy seconds after Chung Tran.

Here's another one,

https://www.iata.org/en/pressroom/20...2023-07-19-01/

Over the past 12-18 months airlines have responded to the very strong post-pandemic travel demand by adding tens of thousands of employees to their workforces. US passenger airline employment is now at its highest level in over two decades, for example. In contrast, ATC staff shortages in North America continue to produce unacceptable delays and disruptions for the traveling public on both sides of the border.

The IATA is biased, still I'd suspect they're right about airline employment being at a 20 year high. I don't believe we're back to pre-COVID passenger levels either.

[Why_Yes_I_Do]

I guess this means they have cleaner restroom these days, because they do not have an over abundance of pilot and air traffic controllers. Let us unwrap the closing paragraph

Bottom Line

“Ottawa and Washington, DC need to take ownership of the issues under their direct control and lead in resolving them.

Why is this apparently a new concept all of a sudden?

Appointing a permanent FAA Administrator would be a first and major step in urgently addressing the US aviation/air traffic control infrastructure constraints, which are hindering airlines from delivering the service travelers expect.

Again, new concept?!? Do not, under any DEI circumstance, appoint Sam Brinton for this role!

Furthermore, refraining from doubling down on costly and poorly thought-out air travel consumer rights regulations in both countries, would free up resources across the entire value chain, in order to enhance the customer experience,” said Walsh.

Doubling down on stupid is not a plan of merit. This is known as Bureaucratic Incompetence.

Originally Posted by Tiny

Funny! No way I'd do sloppy seconds after Chung Tran.

Here's another one,

https://www.iata.org/en/pressroom/20...2023-07-19-01/

Over the past 12-18 months airlines have responded to the very strong post-pandemic travel demand by adding tens of thousands of employees to their workforces. US passenger airline employment is now at its highest level in over two decades, for example. In contrast, ATC staff shortages in North America continue to produce unacceptable delays and disruptions for the traveling public on both sides of the border.

The IATA is biased, still I'd suspect they're right about airline employment being at a 20 year high. I don't believe we're back to pre-COVID passenger levels either.