Thank you Massachusetts!

[TexTushHog]

Originally Posted by LonesomeDove

I won’t go into all that you wrote discreetgent but the fact is under G.W. we were protected and there was not a repeat of September 11, 2001.

Beyond bullshit, as a previous poster pointed out. But at least Obama isn't a war criminal who engaged in wholesale violation of Article III of the Geneva Code (though his record on civil liberties is nothing to brag compared to what it should be). But at least it's largely within the bounds of international law. Bush should be tried for war crimes.

And there are many of us on the left who are bitterly disappointed in Obama, too. He has been weak and waffling on actually accomplishing anything significant. His health care bill is an conservative/moderate embarrassment and a sop to the insurance industry. It won't lower costs because it doesn't address the primary problem -- for profit medicine. Second, his failure to even entertain single payer as an alternative has alienated half (or more) of the Democratic Party. He's let ideological traitor's like Joe Leiberman and Ben Nelson write the bill. Shameful. And a large reason why many Democrats stayed home in Massachusetts.

[discreetgent]

Originally Posted by TexTushHog

And there are many of us on the left who are bitterly disappointed in Obama, too. He has been weak and waffling on actually accomplishing anything significant. His health care bill is an conservative/moderate embarrassment and a sop to the insurance industry. It won't lower costs because it doesn't address the primary problem -- for profit medicine. Second, his failure to even entertain single payer as an alternative has alienated half (or more) of the Democratic Party. He's let ideological traitor's like Joe Leiberman and Ben Nelson write the bill. Shameful. And a large reason why many Democrats stayed home in Massachusetts.

Good point on Democrats staying home; otoh MA has had a number of Republican governors starting with William Weld in the 1990s; Dems have a large advantage in registration over Republicans but Independents are the real trump card. I happen to think that getting a bill passed was the key as it has been for much social legislation. Pass what you can get and when the world hasn't fallen in you get some more of what you wanted.

On to the next contest to watch - and this one is Republican vs Republican in the senatorial primary in Florida.

[guest051510-1]

Originally Posted by TexTushHog

No one ought to go broke because they are sick. And no one should die from lack of good health care because they are poor. Unfortunately, that cause took a substantial setback tonight. But Democratic Party been fighting for the right for every American to have health care since 1935, and we'll we'll continue to fight for it despite what happened tonight.

One small correction TTH, "And no one should die from lack of good health care because they are low income." The poor in this country have GREAT health care. I should know, at one point I was so poor my children were on Medicaid and I had a Texas Gold Card and it was the BEST medical care I ever had. Drugs were free too.

[guest041110]

Originally Posted by TexTushHog

Beyond bullshit, as a previous poster pointed out. But at least Obama isn't a war criminal who engaged in wholesale violation of Article III of the Geneva Code (though his record on civil liberties is nothing to brag compared to what it should be). But at least it's largely within the bounds of international law. Bush should be tried for war crimes.

The only BS is what you wrote TTH but you are far too liberal to see your major mistake and I am laughing at you because you have no idea what you are writing about. The Geneva Convention of 1949, in particular article III, was not violated by Bush and I challenge you to find specific examples where Bush violated the Convention as well as Article III. If you can and the UN has done nothing then we must have a right-wing nut job conspiracy of major proportions that has infected the EU as well as the UN while Russia has decided to go to the locker room and have a Vodka with the Chinese. I find it hilarious that you are attempting to pass your opinion, initially, off as fact while then contradicting yourself later by stating that Bush should be tried for war crimes. Which is it? He either violated it or he didn’t but it can’t both so you need to make your mind up… just like a girl can’t be a little pregnant.

I won’t bother with the rest of that section because what you wrote is really out there and without basis or facts.

Originally Posted by TexTushHog

And there are many of us on the left who are bitterly disappointed in Obama, too. He has been weak and waffling on actually accomplishing anything significant. His health care bill is an conservative/moderate embarrassment and a sop to the insurance industry. It won't lower costs because it doesn't address the primary problem -- for profit medicine. Second, his failure to even entertain single payer as an alternative has alienated half (or more) of the Democratic Party. He's let ideological traitor's like Joe Leiberman and Ben Nelson write the bill. Shameful. And a large reason why many Democrats stayed home in Massachusetts.

Now as far as health care, what is being debated by Congress is not going to work. It will be struck down by the Judiciary once they have their say and their say is how it goes. The reason the current health care legislation is impotent is because it does not address the basic problem of care which is how best to make sure that everyone has access to health care. On top of that is the sher lunacy of putting the threat of arrest and incarceration for those who don't carry insurance while putting the IRS in chage of it? Am I the only one that see the agenda here? Being a trained medical professional when I was in the Armed Forces, I know firsthand why this current legislation won’t work besides it being full of pork-barrel politics on both sides of the fence.

Some have it right in this thread however others are far too into their parties politics. It does not matter if you are Republican or Democrat, the problem is that what is in the current legislation does not address the fundamental way people get insurance and how the system needs to handle the entire interaction between Doctor and patient. And that is the leading reason why this legislation is bad but not because there is not a single payor or other things that should be way down the list of important items. The current legislation does not address the health care industry as a whole, putting in controls so people can have a graduated way of getting coverage for themselves. The way to oblivion is to treat Health Care as a government run agency, which will ensure it will fail just like Medicare and Social Security are seeing with the declining pay in due to the population demographics.

Excuse me but who here, please raise your hand, thinks more government is the answer? The current government cannot even balance the budget nor can it produce reasonable expectations of fair representation of the people in its tax codes or any number of the other 1000’s of items that currently exist. Who here would still be here if they ran their household finances like the Federal Government? Writing checks that bounce is a guaranteed way to see that you are incarcerated since it is a crime under our laws.

It is the height of arrogance for this administration and Congress to think it can take away for profit medicine. The ones who think for profit medicine is bad better think real hard about that since making money is the way this country has worked long before anyone who is on this site was even thought about and it even goes beyond the eldest on this site when their great-great-great-grandparents were around on this planet or in this country.

[nevergaveitathought]

its against the law not to treat anyone, insurance, no insurance, legal, illegal, green, brown, orange or chartruese in hospital emergency rooms so kudos to canada for the same thing that happens in the U.S.

[WTF]

There was an election last night? I thought all politics were local. I know last night I was politicking for a hot bun with plenty of relish for my weenie.


This same state sent you Ted Kennedy.....and would have done so again and again.

Do you really think that this is a healthcare mandate from the people of Mass?

Or maybe just a mandate on running a shitty candidate vs. a dynamic one in the middle of high unemployment in a state that is actually satisfied with what in effect is state that has UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE.

LD are you for this continued health care system as it is? You have shown that you have no peoblem spending other people's money on Nation building, I wonder why you are so aganist spend money on your own citizens? Oh wait the only true citizens are the one that vote the way you do.

[npita]

Originally Posted by LonesomeDove

Sure, Sydney and I understand you are being gentle...

[FONT=Times New Roman]How about retroactively changing the tax laws to focus on only IB CEO’s and traders because of income bonues from past contracts that are legally binding and valid? How about the nationalization of Government Motors? Or trying to make the lack of health care coverage illegal and open to jail time to those that don't carry it… at the hands of the IRS?

Which of those is against the law? (You did state that what Obama was doing was against the law, but nothing you said backs that up. Please refererence that applicable statutes.) As for ``nationalization of Government Motors,'' would you have preferred to just give them the money as has been done in the past with bailouts? At least he is expecting GM to pay back the money and so far GM (and Chrysler) have been making payments to get out from government control. If I loaned someone a great deal of money to bail him out of a financial disaster, I'd expect to have a great deal of input on how it was spent.

[Happy Diver]

Well I'm a Modern Whig and it's been pretty obvious that both Republicans and Democrats have been spending money like there was no tomorrow. Don't see a lot of difference between the two.

modernwhig.org

[WTF]

Originally Posted by Happy Diver

Well I'm a Modern Whig and it's been pretty obvious that both Republicans and Democrats have been spending money like there was no tomorrow. Don't see a lot of difference between the two.

modernwhig.org

There is no difference as far as spending money goes.

The Teabaggers are just Republican dressed in drag who care not if they spend others' money on nation building.

[pjorourke]

Originally Posted by discreetgent

On to the next contest to watch - and this one is Republican vs Republican in the senatorial primary in Florida.

Word! A small government fiscal conservative (Rubio) vs. a big spender (Chris).

[Guest053011]

I fly out of Washington today. After reading this thread, I'm kissing the ground when I land in Canada lol

[TexRich]

smart health care reform yes, government take over and back room deals and bribes....NO!

[Hercules]

Women talking politics makes me hornier then hell......

[Rudyard K]

What a joke!! One election is won and folks start talking about other’s wanting people to die.

Any idiot can come up with ideas to save lives. Let’s build walkways over every intersection so no one has to get in a cross walk. That will save lives. Let’s give free food to everyone. That will save lives. Let’s lower the speed limit to 25 mph on any road. That will save lives. Let’s provide free electricity to everyone. That will save lives. Let’s give free clothing to everyone. That will save lives.

Figuring out how to do these things in a fiscally responsible manner, where it saves the most lives? Well that is a tougher trick. But nevertheless, it sounds so much more noble to stand on a soapbox telling everyone you want to save lives…and imply that if another doesn’t agree with your methodology that they must be for killing people.

It would appear that not everyone is as enamored with the “change” this country has gone through over the last year. A year and a half ago?...not everyone was all that enamored with the way the world had gone in the previous few years. I’m not sure why one was “the people speaking” and the other is not.

As long as the conversation starts with standing on a soapbox and implying some nobility?...then it will just be a case of “might makes right”. Last night?...the “might” was in the conservative camp.

[Egrbvr]

I for one don't think Brown's election was all about healthcare reform. I believe it was about the way it is being handled...BCD. Pelosi, Reed and Barney Frank, et al, project that they know better than all Americans what is needed and wear their majority on their sleeves. That attitude, my friends, will eventually bring them down. Also, Mr. Obama has shown precious little in the way of leadership on this issue, leaving the heavy lifting to the clowns running congress.

Probably most importantly, pushing a huge spending bill through during the worst recession in decades, with unemployment over 10% and a multi-trillion dollar national debt, just does not make sense to thinking people.