Tea Party Lies

[Seomon]

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

Seomon, my naive friend. The giant corporations and government are one and the same.

So, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that Enron = government, that Arthur Anderson = government, that Philip Morris = government, that AT&T = government, that RCA = government???... I am not naive. I just understand the difference between wielding influence and being the vehicle by which influence is achieved. Ask yourslf this: why do media deal with Al Sharpton? It's not because he is a genius (clearly he is not). It is because he wields influence. It is the same with Jessie Jackson or the man who made Republicans sign the non-tax pledge.

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

This drama of "liberal" v. "conservative" is simply a distraction, like a magician's sleight of hand, to distract us from what is really going on. Ask yourself, does anything really change? There is supposed to be a huge contrast between Presidents Bush and Obama, but did things really change? Not really, the differences are cosmetic, and not substantive.

This I agree with very much. In fact, there is not much difference between party platforms, despite the fact that people LOVE to spew the few differences between conservative/liberal, democrat/republican as if they are significant. They are separated only by dogmatic ideology.

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

But to the tax code. Why should I help fund your decision to have children, buy a car, buy a house, buy a solar panel or whatever? The current tax code, as I have said, is simply a vehicle to fund members of Congress' re-election campaigns. (And I have a doctoral law degree in taxation).

And so what you are arguing is that even though society designates something a common good, that the very act of enacting, say, a tax code to promote it is by its very nature autocratic? Hmmm... might you be an anarchist? (I am not asking this question out of jest) Is this why government/corporate support/enforcement of anything is quite distasteteful to you? If this is the case, nothing I can ever say will sway you. And while I don't agree with that position, I can respect it.

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

And boy, government schools are doing a bang up job, aren't they?

Actually, yes, they are. UC Berkeley is only rivaled by Stanford for the most Nobel winners. In fact, the entire UC system produces some of the best scholars in the world. KU's journalism school is one of the best in the world, along with MU. KSU has one of the best agronomy and engineering schools in the world. If you look for bad - then that's all you'll ever see.

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

All I am saying is, Give Liberty a Chance.

In a democracy, COG, no one will ever enjoy complete liberty. Democracy is based on compromise and majority rule. So even though, as you have correctly noted, that the corporations are entrenched in Capitol Hill and are quite cozy with our elected officials, it doesn't mean that we cannot affect change as Mr. McLintock pointed out. I choose to put my faith in democracy; I choose to put my faith in people.

[JD Barleycorn]

I would have to ask for a clarification of what constitutes a "giant" corporation and what is just a corporation. As the "giant" ones are evil I would like to know. No, I need more of a definition than just look at them.

[CuteOldGuy]

Seomon, I am not an anarchist, nor am I a small d democrat. The US was not founded as a democracy, in fact, the term "democrat" was an epithet among the patriots in the late 1700s. We are a representative republic, where the Constitution, not majority rule, is the law of the land. The Founders feared majority rule, hence all the checks and balances in government, and insulation from unfettered will of the people.

And if you think the major corporations are not hand in glove running the government with our "elected" representatives, I don't know what to tell you. You want my list of the most evil corporations? Ok, a very short list. Monsanto, AIG, Big Oil, the Fed, Big Pharma - it's hard to stop.

Monsanto - genetically modified foods, they are destroying our food supply and forcing farmers to accept their frankenfood seeds.

Big Oil - Why in the hell are we still addicted to a 19th century fuel in the 21st century? There are a number of alternate fuels available, such as methanol, natural gas, hydrogen which are cleaner, cheaper and more readily abundant, but they cannot be controlled by the oil companies. They have the money to stop these fuels and produce phony test results claiming they are not feasible. BS.

Pharma - Do you really think there are not more effective treatments for cancer, heart disease, diabetes and others? How much money would pharma lose if those effective treatments were made readily available? They are a bunch of evil, greedy bastards and government will not oppose them, because they are the de facto government.

And how did this come about? DEMOCRACY! We have turned ourselves into a democracy, which means that if a candidate has enough money, they can obtain and retain power, prestige and status. Where do they get this money? Big business and big unions. Why does nothing change? Because the money train would cease.

If we were the republic our founders anticipated, there would be appropriate checks and balances against the defrauding of the public, and the draining of the public treasury.

And how is compromise a virtue? Where is the compromise between nutrition and poison? Between liberty and tyranny? We'd still be a British colony had the Founders been proponents of compromise. Compromise with statists? Plutocrats? Hell No!

We cannot effect change through the system. JFK tried. RFK tried. Reagan was going to try, but changed his plans after being shot. If any candidate who might really promote change started getting popular, you can be sure something will happen to him/her.

I'm not sure assassination is on the table anymore, since we no longer use paper ballots in most places. Do you think voting machines are accurate? Come on, we learned that votes don't matter in 2000 and 2004, not that we would have been any better off with the alternatives. Nothing would be different.

Hell, President Obama promised hope and change. What has changed? We still spend too much, we are still engaged in even more military operations for the sole purpose of enriching the defense contractors. Same old, same old. Business as usual.

We need a civil, non-violent revolution to restore our Republic to its past glory. We need it soon.

[Seomon]

@ COG You are scaring me bro. I hear you. I don't agree but I do hear you. Having worked for one of the evil companies you are talking about, I KNOW that government did giveth to them but it sure tooketh away too. The company got f*cked out of billions because government sided against them. With each of those companies you can find examples of them not getting their way getting hurt tremendously. The difference between them and you is that they DON'T give up. It seems you have and that saddens me bro. The system can work if we invest and believe in it...

Shantih Shantih Shantih

[CuteOldGuy]

I agree the system can work. But I refer to the system that was set up by our Founders in the Constitution. Watch over the long run, the corporations run the government, and these fights and "siding" with one over another is part of the show, or that company is being punished for not towing the line. Your company didn't, doesn't and never will give a damn about you.

You suffer from the delusion that what we get over the state-controlled media is true. The fights are all just a distraction. Who profited from the recent debt ceiling debate? George Soros scored a billion dollars on that one. Who buys up the stock after the price falls drastically? You guessed it, Goldman Sachs and their ilk. We need to wake up before any memory of liberty is gone.

And I forgot the most evil of all: Microsoft - Did you know that Internet Explorer has a back door through which the government can monitor everything you do online? I am trying to eliminate all traces of Microsoft from my life. Apple, too. Going Linux. I know it is pointless, but it makes me feel better.

[CuteOldGuy]

Oh, and I haven't given up. I just can see what is going on. The current system must be replaced, it is beyond repair. The best way to do that is through a non-violent uprising of the people. Granted, that will not likely happen, but I look for every way to defy the system. There are others out there who agree with me, and I will join with them. Give up? Hell no!

But I also don't let this run my life. I still enjoy my family, friends, and especially my grandchildren. Tom Clancy novels, except his last one, that one sucked, pizza, beer, hobbying, jazz music, writing for publication, my spiritual practice, and lots of other things. I have a hell of a good life. I want the same for my grandchildren.

[Seomon]

COG - I suffer from no delusions friend. State media (any media) doesn't know the half of it (and what they do know they don't share all of it with you or me) - you and I don't either. We know what we know and what we each knows amount to a mound of dookie. Have passion friend but always read and listen and ALWAYS be curious. I've given you some info which I think you glossed over.

Know that somebody gave you the George Soros story. I'll quote my favorite author: "Oh do not ask what is it? Let us go and make our visit." Secondary sources suck. Primary ones are often puzzles and the info is not as clean as someone trying to persuade would like you to believe it to be. Know above all else, who makes what money from what crisis from which bill from which war is meaningless unless you are the one making/losing the money. What does matter to you (and your grandchildren) is what you do to make the world a better place. Do that and you're being patriotic.

The system set up by our Founders was but a shell friend. It had no shape and no obvious direction. It was written that way so that the people who followed would be able to sculpt it to societal needs. This is why today women vote, slavery is illegal, we have the EPA, and Blacks count for more than 3/5s of a human being.

No company SHOULD care about anyone or anything but itself and its own interests, just as you should. Government acts in much the same way. The difference is: government has a leash. If you abdicate your responsibility of working to rein government in, you let the corporations and the unions win. Corporations have leashes too but their leash is in the hands of the shareholders.

[Cheaper2buyit]

Cog I enjoy Tom Clancy too one of the best out.

[Guest080613]

Originally Posted by JD Barleycorn

I think we are talking about two different things from two different times. I am talking about the Community Reinvestment Act of 1977. I was not condemning the idea of home ownership, I was pointing out that the democrats and Jimmy Carter inserted the government into the idea of home ownership. Once that was in place then it became a race to see that more people owned homes even if they were not qualified. The banks were leery at first but the Congress and Bill Clinton said that they government would cover any losses. They also said that banks should start making those loans or the would have problems with government regulators. Plain old black mail by any name. During the GW years there were attempts to investigate but it was stopped by the democratic majority in the Senate and footdragging in the house.

As for welfare, (get this) I am thinking about the children. How will a young person realize their own self worth when they grow up in the welfare world. I am unaware of any polling on the subject but I would be willing to bet that someone who grows up in the welfare system is much more likely to stay in the system that someone else who grew up outside of it.

And it REALLY went downhill when the banks started "packaging" these bad loans as some type of commodity. A great read on this subject is "The Big Short" by Michael Lewis. It's heavy finance but amazingly easy to read and understand. Anything he writes is worth paying attention to.

Jack

[Guest080613]

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

Oh, and I haven't given up. I just can see what is going on. The current system must be replaced, it is beyond repair. The best way to do that is through a non-violent uprising of the people. Granted, that will not likely happen, but I look for every way to defy the system. There are others out there who agree with me, and I will join with them. Give up? Hell no!

But I also don't let this run my life. I still enjoy my family, friends, and especially my grandchildren. Tom Clancy novels, except his last one, that one sucked, pizza, beer, hobbying, jazz music, writing for publication, my spiritual practice, and lots of other things. I have a hell of a good life. I want the same for my grandchildren.

I have given up. Seriously. For the last year, for me, it's been "Carpe Diem por Tempus fugit!" Loosely translated, Seize the Day for Time flies!

We're running out of time. When the national debt went past 50% of the GDP the die was cast and it's done nothing but accelerate since then. Things won't change.

"From bondage to spiritual faith; from spiritual faith to courage; from courage to liberty; from liberty to abundance; from abundance to selfishness; from selfishness to apathy; from apathy to dependency; and from dependency back to bondage once more." From 1943 speech Industrial Management in a Republic by H. W. Prentis, president of the Armstrong Cork Company

I would say that right now we are leaving the selfishness phase and moving into apathy with a significant percentage of the population well into dependence. Can anyone really argue this? We bluster about how "free" we are yet when a state governor sends back federal money that really wouldn't benefit his state he's said to be telling people to "hurry up and die". How else can you explain a 80% return of the sorry excuses we have for representatives and senators back to congress? Nobody cares about the good of the nation (apathy) they're only concerned about themselves (selfishness) and/or they're afraid of losing the government benefits they are currently getting (dependence).

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy." The earliest known appearance of this quote was Dec. 9, 1951 in an op-ed piece in The Daily Oklahoman under the by-line Elmer T. Peterson even though it's been attributed (falsely) to everyone from Jefferson to Franklin to Tytler.

So yes, COG, I have given up. The Die has been cast. The worm has turned. Stick a fork in it, we're done. Try to own free and clear all of the things you believe you'll need for the rest of your lives. Try to have a few luxuries (which, when this is all over, might be things as simple as a stockpile of salt and sugar and a warm coat) to make life bearable and hold on to your ass because the storm is coming.

Jack

[JD Barleycorn]

I'm sure that many soldiers under Washington at Valley Forge thought that independence was nothing more than a pipe dream.
Some truisms; all politicians are crooks, which is what the crooked politicians want you to believe. It gets the crooked ones off the hook.
Everyone does it, I just got caught. What a guilty person says to mitigate their crimes.
Things can't get any worse. Want to bet?
Its over, turn out the lights. If you give up then it is over. Never give up.

[JD Barleycorn]

Does this mean I'm arguing with myself? What do you think CDN?

[Guest080613]

Originally Posted by JD Barleycorn;1556067

I'm sure that many soldiers under Washington at Valley Forge thought that independence was nothing more than a pipe dream.

I'll bet the % was damn low since it was an all volunteer force.

Some truisms; all politicians are crooks, which is what the crooked politicians want you to believe. It gets the crooked ones off the hook.

Yes. No. Maybe. What does that have to do with the discussion at hand?

Everyone does it, I just got caught. What a guilty person says to mitigate their crimes.

See the previous comment.

Things can't get any worse. Want to bet?

Things always look darkest just before they go completely black. It's getting pretty dark out, but it's not black yet. Give it time.

Its over, turn out the lights. If you give up then it is over. Never give up.

Wrong. Sometimes you just can't cheat physics or numbers forever. You fall off a 10 story roof. Fact, it's going to hurt when you hit the ground. You can wish it won't all you want but at the end of the fall it's still gonna hurt. You jump naked in the ocean. Fact, you're going to get wet. All the wishing in the world isn't going to keep you dry. All the fight in the world isn't going to keep you dry. You're going to get wet.

We are past the point that our Democratically Elected Representative Republic and sustain itself while staying in compliance with the US Constitution. It's not going to happen. It cannot happen. The house of cards is going to come down so prepare yourself for that fact.

Jack

[JD Barleycorn]

I won't say that we've jumped off (or been pushed) off a ten story building yet. Besides there have been accounts of people surviving such things. Some by luck but others because they did something different than just fall.

Jefferson said that the country would not long survive when the voters realized that they could give themselves benefits at the expense of others. We are at that point I have to admit but we have a couple more chances. The Tea Party is bi-partisan and is made up of angry people who have come to the conclusion that too much spending is too much. These people are motivated more than union lackies and ignorant college kids will ever be. Removing Obama from office and putting 50-60 more Tea Party people in congress will demonstrate a sea change in politics. Opportunistic pols will try to get out front of being the big "spending cutter". They may not believe in it but they want to get elected or reelected.


I kind of wish that John Galt would surface from whatever he is up to. Then we could have a three way.

[Cheaper2buyit]

Then switch to your other CPU because you are John galt and what kind of three some you, and him take turns with deacon freaks but hay if that makes you happy.