Stephanè Hessel on Occupy Wallstreet "Find the time for outrage"

[Munchmasterman]

Originally Posted by OliviaHoward

Obamacare IS CRONY CAPITALIST CRAP! If he had stuck to his guns and done a singe payer or a national carrier, we wouldn’t have the cross-over, inbred abortion between socialist care and capitalist fuck you that we have now. It’s a bad bill; I hope the Supreme Court strikes it down so we can start over with something that the people want and that will work without lining the pockets of the pharma and insurance industries at the cost and on the backs of working Americans.

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The result was pretty much pre-determined.
Money/cost aspect aside, one party wanted health care, one didn't. Within the party that wanted it, there were compromises made to gain passage. Compromises that led to the current law.
I think some of the things or issues the current law has could have been eliminated by having some republican votes to over-ride special interest groups within the democratic party.

That's the main thing that bothers me about the whole deal. I don't think the republicans ever tried to help improve the product. They only tried to stop it.
The democrats had to trim or add items to keep enough support to pass the bill.
Even now there is no talk of fixing, only repealing.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by OliviaHoward

Because they don’t have to. They have NATO and a strong American presence all through out Europe – specifically in Germany!




That’s one group’s complaint. I’ve read so many accounts of people protesting out of anger. Some because they can’t find a job. Some because they want a communist State. Some because they are raging against the Wall Street Robber Barons. And some because they are young, angry and have fuck all else to do. They have no leader and no cohesive thesis of their complaints. However, I think the movement is getting through to the "establishment" despite themselves.



The baby boomer generation is hands down the SINGLE WORST THING TO EVER HAPPEN TO THE FACE OF THE PLANET – No offense to Baby Boomers present; of course, it’s a generalization and doesn’t apply to every single baby boomer in the Land. But as a group, they are selfish hypocrites that protested the War in the name of fuck the man – and mostly because there was a universal draft and they didn’t want to go to war, and then proceeded become the same hated man and systematically destroy the fabric of our country with their unabated greed. They ignored their children and they now wonder why they are college educated and living at home at 32. The Baby Boomers are like locust. But soon, we’ll be left with their kids!



Oh really? I would have thought from your condescending post and your avatar that you are used to telling women what to think and do. Am I wrong? In any event, here are a few of my thoughts.

What makes socialism a failing system? Money. As long as you have enough money and enough people that either can pay, are willing to pay or an earning population in sufficient quantities to pay into the system, it works. If you don't, it will fail.

Willing to Pay - Germany is unwilling to pay for other countries bad fiscal policies and for societies that do not value hard work. It's not the German's fault that the Greeks have virtually no heavy industry, that want to bask in the Grecian sun at the age of 55 after a career chasing tourist dollars and not slaving away deep in some factory creating things of value to sell. There are other examples of those unwilling to pay, but this a readily accessible example.

Can't Pay: some countries just are too poor to sustain a socialist system. Oil Curse countries like Venezuela have the money, but they distribute the money through citizenry directly without passing it through multiple layers of wealth creating industry so that the can money to grow. They don't have wealth creating industry for several reasons, but mainly because it is a dictatorship that either doesn't want his people/ country to be wealthy or he doesn't understand how advanced economies work. Instead, the money is given directly to the people in need with just one turn on the money after the initial earnings and therefore there is not enough money to go around even if originally there was enough wealth creating industry at the beginning of the food chain.

Too Small a Population: in many countries, Italy for example, the population growth isn't substantial enough to support the aging population without immigration because of the declining birth rates. You have to have workers to tax or you have no money in the system.

These are just thoughts off the top of my head; I'm sure there are others and many more examples of the examples I've given. Socialism only works when there is other peoples’ money to spend. In the absence of it, the house of cards comes down.

Originally Posted by joe bloe

Socialism doesn't work; Europe is disintegrating because of it. The occupiers want America to go down the same socialist path as Europe.

They're nuts.

Olivia,
joe bloe made a stupid statement. Socialism works in degree's.

I point out where it has worked pretty damn well. Germany. There are other countries. France, Japan but the point is he lied.

The OWS movement wants the same thing their parents and grandparents wanted. Affordable education, jobs and a nice social security network at the end of their life.

Were they Socialists?

Do you agree with what the stupid SOB posted or not?

You have been all over the map in your replies.

I agree with much of what you have posted. You can make an argument that we are headed for failed statehood. China appears to be kicking our ass at our own game. Are they commies?

His simple statement was meant for simpletons and I treated it as such. Your defense of him seems to be all over the map and not really proving him correct. Not sure wdhat point you are trying to make. Maybe you could try and be more precise in what your point is.

My point was....joe blow said an idiotic thing.

[dilbert firestorm]

"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." -- Margaret Thatcher

[WTF]

Originally Posted by dilbert firestorm

"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." -- Margaret Thatcher

William F. Buckley, Jr., an iconic figure for American conservatives, said that he occasionally felt the need to cite Austrian ex-communist Willi Schlamm, who said, "The trouble with socialism is socialism. The trouble with capitalism is capitalists."

[Guest050715-1]

Originally Posted by WTF

Olivia,
joe bloe made a stupid statement. Socialism works in degree's.

Yes, but only in degrees. It has tipped too far in Europe. It's one of the MAIN reasons that Greece, Spain, Italy, Ireland and France (and yes, France too) are teetering on disaster.

I have already given my views on why Socialism doesn't work, and someone quoted the Iron Lady - eventually you run out of money.

Originally Posted by WTF

I point out where it has worked pretty damn well. Germany. There are other countries. France, Japan but the point is he lied.

No he disagrees with you. He didn't lie.

Germany is doing well NOW. But give them time. Cyclically they cannot be on top for ever for several reasons. The sun has set on the British Empire. The French are about to collapse too and they haven't fought a war since Napoleon. And I am not aware that Japan is a socialist country. I would have to check into that one to comment intelligently.

Originally Posted by WTF

The OWS movement wants the same thing their parents and grandparents wanted. Affordable education, jobs and a nice social security network at the end of their life.

The Baby Boomers invented the you-ain't-got-no-job-for-the-rest-of-your-life economy. Before them, there was an ass for every seat and a seat for every ass. Don't you get it? Their PARENTS are the ones that destroyed their own children's future! Before them, the world was younger for sure, but it was a the mass-greed that gripped the Boomers is apalling. No generation in the history of the world let alone the US ever dreamed of retiring at 50 with unearned, stock market millions. Now they want to bitch because they have to work until a "real" retirement age like the untold billions that have come before them. Are you serious?

The stock market millionaires wouldn't be millionaires if their botheren weren't out chanting the Gorden Geco mantra of Greed is Good! THEY are the ones to blame. THEY are the ones that are weak or cockey enough to think that they deserve something that has never before been doable. THEY are the locust that is burning this land to the ground as sure as a swarm of locust would.

Originally Posted by WTF

Were they Socialists?

Were who socialists?

Originally Posted by WTF

Do you agree with what the stupid SOB posted or not?

I agree that the European Continent and their over the top socialism has destroyed their cultures and economies. SOME social safety nets are good. EXTREME safety nets are not good. I've already given my thoughts on that. Yes, I think that Europe has made their own bed. To much of a good thing is too much of a good thing.

Originally Posted by WTF

You have been all over the map in your replies.

No, you have chosen to be confused by what I've said. I've been consistent throughout this and many other discussion so social safety nets. They are necessary, but they are not the ultimate solution, because we can't afford that solution.

Originally Posted by WTF

I agree with much of what you have posted. You can make an argument that we are headed for failed statehood. China appears to be kicking our ass at our own game. Are they commies?

I honestly have no idea what China is now. I know they are a dictatorship that could swing back to anti-Capitalism on a whim, but I don't think they will. If history is a gauge though, they may. They were way ahead of Europe in navel technology, and pulled back from multi-masked ships, to the point of making it a capital offense, several hundred years ago. Who knows. I'm not sure they know right now.

Yes, they are kicking ass and taking names, but they can't sustain that growth for ever just like we couldn't. What are they going to do if their markets dry up? If Europe and the US economies deteriorate further. How are they going to artificially hold the value of their yen against the fallen euro and. if that happens, a falsely high dollar? Who will they export to? Who will buy production in their factories?

When are we in the West going to cut them off the technology gravy train now that they are producing fighter jets? Too many variables and not enough history of late to decide if they are commies or not.

His simple statement was meant for simpletons and I treated it as such. Your defense of him seems to be all over the map and not really proving him correct. Not sure wdhat point you are trying to make. Maybe you could try and be more precise in what your point is.

My point was....joe blow said an idiotic thing.[/quote]

I disagree. It is a legitimate statement especially given the current climate. Follow the money. The answer is always where the money is.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by WTF

You have been all over the map in your replies.

.

Originally Posted by OliviaHoward

No, you have chosen to be confused by what I've said. I've been consistent throughout this and many other discussion so social safety nets.....


....I honestly have no idea what China is now. I know they are a dictatorship that could swing back to anti-Capitalism on a whim, but I don't think they will. If history is a gauge though, they may. .

First you have no idea, then it is a dictatorship that could swing back to anti Capitalism on a whim ( which begs the question, Where on earth is there a dictatorship that is pro Capital LOL you do rralize that free markets are not ruled by dictators) but you don't think they will. Oh wait if history is to be believed , they may swing back ....


I rest my case...

Originally Posted by WTF

You have been all over the map in your replies.

.

[CuteOldGuy]

Advantage: Olivia

[WTF]

I get it COG....you love pussy. So do I.

I just don't mix them with political discussions


She posts a rambling mumbojumbo that could be summed up with what I posted in one sentence.

"The trouble with socialism is socialism. The trouble with capitalism is capitalists."

[CuteOldGuy]

She's got a nice pussy, and accurate political opinions. A perfect match! She beat you.

[joe bloe]

Originally Posted by WTF

First you have no idea, then it is a dictatorship that could swing back to anti Capitalism on a whim ( which begs the question, Where on earth is there a dictatorship that is pro Capital LOL you do rralize that free markets are not ruled by dictators) but you don't think they will. Oh wait if history is to be believed , they may swing back ....


I rest my case...

You ask the question "where on Earth is there a dictatorship that is pro capital" I assume you mean pro capitalism.

Benito Mussolini was a dictator; he was a fascist dictator. Fascism is a form of government where the private sector companies are controlled by the government but not owned by the government.

China is a dictatorship by any reasonable definition of the word. The people do not have free speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of religion, or free elections, etc.

China is also not a Marxist style communist system either. Their system is a kind of hybrid that allows for profit to be made in the private sector but does not allow the people to decide how they will live their lives. It is an example of a version of capitalism which coexists with tyranny.

[Guest050715-1]

Originally Posted by WTF

First you have no idea, then it is a dictatorship that could swing back to anti Capitalism on a whim ( which begs the question, Where on earth is there a dictatorship that is pro Capital LOL you do rralize that free markets are not ruled by dictators) but you don't think they will. Oh wait if history is to be believed , they may swing back ....


I rest my case...

China has a dictatorial leadership with a history of beyond Stalin's wildest dreams brutal leadership, controlled by the Communist party and allows the ownership of property and individual commerce to flourish. I don’t know what to call that three-headed hybrid. Do you?

We have to look to history to help us decide how to act or to predict how others will act. Act like the intellectual you think you are.

Without looking it up to find other societies that have totalitarian rule and a free market economy I would say Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, England under the monarchies before the modern limited monarchies (During Elizabeth I’s reign, commence flourished, but the rule was still centralized under a powerful queen), Napoleon’s France and I can’t think of anymore. It’s not common, but it exists.

And where are on the economic system of Japan? You never did answer that one.

Originally Posted by joe bloe

............................
Benito Mussolini was a dictator; he was a fascist dictator. Fascism is a form of government where the private sector companies are controlled by the government but not owned by the government.

.....................

Thank you joe blow, how in the world could I have forgotten Mussolini’s Italy. Benito is the Godfather of fascism. Which by the way, I feel that America is now – That is that the government is controlled by industry.

[WTF]

Olivia and joe blow,
A good teacher lets his students find the answer instead of just giving it to you.

You have both done well, now I will kindly finish the circle for you because I think you two are to focused on trying to be right instead of actually learning something.

Next time someone says (joe blow) ''Socialism bad.''
Another person (oliviahoward) will not mindlessly chime in, ''Yes!''

You two have proceeded to explain that there really is no such thing in real life as socialism or capitalism. All government have both to degrees.

That was my point by saying what joe blow stated was so damn stupid, Sean Hannity BS, meant only for the ignorant masses.

You haven't passed my class yet but you are no longer failing, at least you two are thinking.

Next up will be logical thinking....


If nothing else , you both should have a better understanding just wtf is meant when someone says... "The trouble with socialism is socialism. The trouble with capitalism is capitalists."

[Guest050715-1]

Originally Posted by WTF

Olivia and joe blow, a good teacher lets his students find the answer instead of just giving it to you.

You have both done well, now I will kindly finish the circle for you because I think you two are to focused on trying to be right instead of actually learning something.

Next time someone'' says (joe blow) Socialism bad.''
Another person (oliviahoward) will not mindlessly chime in, ''Yes!''

You two have proceeded to explain that there really is no such thing in real life as socialism or capitalism. All government have both to degrees.

That was my point by saying what joe blow stated was so damn stupid, Sean Hannity BS, meant only for the ignorant masses.

You haven't passed my class yet but you are no longer failing, at least you two are thinking.

Next up will be logical thinking....

Is that it? Right. Now I’ll lay it out for you the way it is. You want to be right, but rarely are. In lieu being right, a close second to actually being right is being right in your own mind’s eye. You consistently agitate and or try to twist words, but to no avail with the accomplished. So, I’m going to call bullshit on your sensei / grasshopper speech.

Yes, there are socialist nations and there are capitalist nations and then there are the middle of the road nations like Germany. There’s your whole circle. Germany is a social democracy and is not "socialist" nation. They encourage private enterprise and wealth creation, but they impose what capitalist would call over the top taxes to support what we would consider a bit too robust social networks.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by OliviaHoward

Is that it? Right. Now I’ll lay it out for you the way it is. You want to be right, but rarely are. In lieu being right, a close second being right in your own mind’s eye. You consistently agitate and or try to twist words, but to no avail with the accomplished. So, I’m going to call bullshit on your sensei / grasshopper speech.

Yes, there are socialist nations and there are capitalist nations and then there are the middle of the road nations like Germany. There’s your whole circle. Germany is a social democracy. They encourage private enterprise and wealth creation, but they impose what capitalist would call over the top taxes to support what we would consider a bit too robust social networks.

Ok , you are back to 'F'.

What are we Olivia? What is our SS system?

Remember , you are being graded....

[I B Hankering]

Yes, government does play a role in capitalism; it always has. Adam Smith wrote that the role of government was to insure the playing field was level for all 'domestic' entrepreneurs. In the realm of international ventures, the government was to insure 'domestic' entrepreneurs were protected against 'unfair business' ventures from other nations.