How are we going to pay for all this shit?

[lustylad]

Originally Posted by Salty Again

Thanks for the comments there, mates.
Bambino and a few other lads 'round here will vouch
that I am who I say I am... Truly of Australian descent,
but have been over here livin' in America for a good while now.
That's all I will say about me statures.

### Salty

Welcome back, mate!

I'll vouch for you too!

Your comments always cracked me up back in the ol' ASPD days.

I'm sure me other mates here at icky will find you just as entertaining, Salty!

[lustylad]

Originally Posted by NoirMan

So you chose the lowest Obama year for comparison and a better Trump year. Good job. Kinda dishonest but ok.

Not dishonest at all. I simply picked the years immediately before and after the 2017 tax cut for comparison. If the economy is sluggish, do you say "No worries mate, things were better 5 years ago so that means there's no need for stimulus now"?


As I said, the trend line over 8 years up to the pandemic all head in the same direction.

What fucking "trend line"? Show me a graph so we have a clue what you're talking about.


Everything else you copy pasted is just goobly gook. I’ll pass on reading it.

So... you didn't bother to read the article I suggested, yet you are somehow able to conclude it's "just goobly gook".

Great... another closed-minded lib who knows he can't debate so he contradicts himself in declining to debate. You'll go far here.

It's a damn shame you don't care about reducing the poverty rate or boosting wages for the lowest-paid American workers.

[NoirMan]

I definitely wanna see a rise of the middle class and better paying jobs for low wage workers. I just happen to believe that cutting taxes for the rich has a negligible impact on that. Raising the minimum wage would help.

As you can see, unemployment rate was trending downward for years before the tax cut.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/...united-states/

Real wages over time - same trend for years.
https://www.epi.org/nominal-wage-tracker/

GDP over time, negligible change after the tax cut when compared to 5 years prior.
https://www.macrotrends.net/countrie...dp-growth-rate


Anyone can take a short snippet in time and claim there was a specific impact. But when taken over a longer period it’s clear that tax cuts did nothing long term and only increase the deficit.

And the most telling is this one. Deficits over time. Downward through 2016, upward after.
https://datalab.usaspending.gov/amer...eficit/trends/

Are those enough “trend lines” for ya.

[Salty Again]

Originally Posted by lustylad

Welcome back, mate!

I'll vouch for you too!

Your comments always cracked me up back in the ol' ASPD days.

I'm sure me other mates here at icky will find you just as entertaining, Salty!

Thanks, me friend. I remember you also. Not just from ASPD, but
RAPS and maybe even Indys. You had good comments on the pretty-birds, too.

We ALL gotta remember that the liberal lads (like Yssup and Noir) gotta be able to have their say also. THAT makes the political forum great. And on occasion, those blokes make a true point or so. Just sayin'...

### Salty

[WTF]

Originally Posted by Tiny

Democrats are as bad or worse than Republicans about running up debt. Esteemed former poster WTF speculated that split government, where one party doesn't control the presidency, Senate and House, is less likely to produce large deficits. He may be right.

I specifically said a Democrat in the WH and a GOP led House...

Trump created almost 8 trillion in debt in 4 short years...well 4 long fucking years!

[nevergaveitathought]

the more the gridlock, the better it is

as to how we are going to pay for it all?

everyone, the world over, will pay

[lustylad]

Originally Posted by WTF

I specifically said a Democrat in the WH and a GOP led House...

??? This is your first post in 3 months. Nobody remembers anything you said prior to your last bancation. Get real.

Originally Posted by WTF

Trump created almost 8 trillion in debt in 4 short years...well 4 long fucking years!

Over $5 trillion of that was racked up in his fourth year due to humongous emergency pandemic relief spending. Try putting things in proper perspective, ok?

[lustylad]

Originally Posted by Salty Again

We ALL gotta remember that the liberal lads (like Yssup and Noir) gotta be able to have their say also. THAT makes the political forum great. And on occasion, those blokes make a true point or so. Just sayin'...

Yssup has never added anything of substance or value to a discussion of the economy in this forum, even though I've invited him to do so time & time again.

NoirMan is a noob so the jury is still out. However, his latest post above is promising! He's already way ahead of YR in discussing economic questions. If he figures out how to post graphs, he could even be dangerous lol.

[NoirMan]

Thank you, I guess.

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by NoirMan

I definitely wanna see a rise of the middle class and better paying jobs for low wage workers. I just happen to believe that cutting taxes for the rich has a negligible impact on that. Raising the minimum wage would help.

As you can see, unemployment rate was trending downward for years before the tax cut.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/...united-states/

Real wages over time - same trend for years.
https://www.epi.org/nominal-wage-tracker/

GDP over time, negligible change after the tax cut when compared to 5 years prior.
https://www.macrotrends.net/countrie...dp-growth-rate


Anyone can take a short snippet in time and claim there was a specific impact. But when taken over a longer period it’s clear that tax cuts did nothing long term and only increase the deficit.

And the most telling is this one. Deficits over time. Downward through 2016, upward after.
https://datalab.usaspending.gov/amer...eficit/trends/

Are those enough “trend lines” for ya.

If trend lines worked every mickey mouse technical trader would be a billionaire. These are the graphs I fixate on,

First, take a look at this. You'll see unemployment in 2019 was lower than it's been since the late 1960's:

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/UNRATE

And here's median household income. Please note from this graph that when Obama left office, the median was about the same as 1999. It's as if the middle class was just treading water for almost 20 years. Then in 2019 median household income jumps way up. It's increasing faster than GDP. So maybe we were on the cusp of a change in the trend, where the middle class incomes would grow faster than income of those who are better off.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N

Unfortunately we'll never know, as COVID brought that to a screeching halt. Now Biden is re-regulating, and the top corporate income tax rate, unless Senator Sinema holds strong, will ratchet up to high levels compared to other OECD countries.

It's really worth reading LustyLad's link to the piece written by Gramm and Solon. This is a classic piece, and it will give you an idea of why changes in the corporate tax rate help workers.

And I second LL's statement. Overnight you've become one of the more formidable posters here on the left. Your posts are somewhat reminiscent of another member, also from Louisiana, who recently departed.

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by WTF

I specifically said a Democrat in the WH and a GOP led House...

Trump created almost 8 trillion in debt in 4 short years...well 4 long fucking years!

First, good to have you back.

I don't think you can blame over 2 years of the deficits on the Republicans. That's how long they held power before the Democrats won the House. So that's about 2 trillion dollars. And the rate of increase during those two years was about the same as it was during the Obama years -- look at the slope of this graph,

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/GFDEBTN

Democrats were complicit in what happened afterwards, and solely responsible for the $1.9 trillion COVID relief package passed earlier this year, which Larry Summers (Democrat economist) lambasted.

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by Salty Again

thanks fer the apology, Tiny. One o' the lads here clued me on that YOU believe I'm really another poster... A banned "Canadian" fellow...

I'm NOT anyone else here. Just "Salty Again" (formerly the near
World Famous bloke "Ausse Salt" from other sites) and have not
posted on this site until this week or so.

### Salty

Sincere apologies Salty. If LustyLad says you're on the up and up, then you're definitely on the up and up. Calling someone a Canadian is the worst insult imaginable -- your level of self control is very impressive.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by lustylad

??? This is your first post in 3 months. Nobody remembers anything you said prior to your last bancation. Get real.




Over $5 trillion of that was racked up in his fourth year due to humongous emergency pandemic relief spending. Try putting things in proper perspective, ok?

I just clarified wtf I said

and two , I put it in the exact same perspective as you did with Obama having to fight the so called Great Recession.

Listen Lustyladdie....I do not hold you in the same esteem as CM....not even close. You spout partisan nonsense, tying yourself up like a pretzel with your verbal vomit

[WTF]

Originally Posted by Tiny

First, good to have you back.

I don't think you can blame over 2 years of the deficits on the Republicans. That's how long they held power before the Democrats won the House. So that's about 2 trillion dollars. And the rate of increase during those two years was about the same as it was during the Obama years -- look at the slope of this graph,

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/GFDEBTN

Democrats were complicit in what happened afterwards, and solely responsible for the $1.9 trillion COVID relief package passed earlier this year, which Larry Summers (Democrat economist) lambasted.

Do you think that tax cut paid for itself?

Democrats always want to spend that is why it was horrible to have Trump as President...he loved to spend too.

That is why I corrected you and said the best combo was Democrat in the WH and a GOP led House.

And Trump was actually increasing deficits whereas Obama was for a bit there decreasing them.

You hero LL was at one time talking about how Trump had decreased Treasury buying bonds or some such bs....let him show us how Trump ended on that note!

[NoirMan]

Originally Posted by Tiny

First, good to have you back.

I don't think you can blame over 2 years of the deficits on the Republicans. That's how long they held power before the Democrats won the House. So that's about 2 trillion dollars. And the rate of increase during those two years was about the same as it was during the Obama years -- look at the slope of this graph,

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/GFDEBTN

Democrats were complicit in what happened afterwards, and solely responsible for the $1.9 trillion COVID relief package passed earlier this year, which Larry Summers (Democrat economist) lambasted.

I’m sure the other dude is quite bright, if it’s whom I believe you’re referring to. I’m sure he’ll return one day.

So I have read both this post and the article posted by Lusty. I still disagree with the premise and feel that it cherry picks data points to support the premise. With that said, I disagree that there was any change in the trends as I’ve point out when taken in bunches of 5-10 years rather than 1 year prior and 1 year after.

Also, increasing deficit spending is a great way to make economic markers look good. Just as during the Obama years the Fed artificially pushed up the stock market the same occurred with deficit spending in the Trump years.

If you look at the indicators I provided for 2011 (the housing market crash recovery) through 2019 (Pre-Pandemic) all indicators move in a positive direction, even unemployment. Had the Obama economy continued for another 2 years at the same trend lines he would have overseen the same numbers as Trump, I suspect, even without the unpaid for tax breaks for people like me and the deficit spending that accompanied it.