Fuck You, GW Bush and Dick Cheney!

[Yssup Rider]

Originally Posted by The2Dogs

Once again, another good reason to stop being the the police force for the world.
We need to leave Iraq and Afghanistan completely and for good.
The people of those areas do not deserve the loss of a single American life.

The treatment of our veterans is shameful in the least and criminal. People that have done absolutely nothing for this nation get better treatment than our vets.

I agree with most of what you say there, 2Dogs.

I don't know that people of ANY areas deserve the loss of a single American (or other) life.

We do NOT need to be the world's cop. Unfortunately, the American war machine refuses to allow us to stand down.

We need to get out of these wars and put our intellectual and financial assets to better use. That would solve a lot of our problems.

[JD Barleycorn]

So (and I am not being facetious) you think George Bush AND Dick Cheney committed torture or you think that they SPECIFICALLY ordered someone to be tortured.

I did look up the US code number and it is dated to 2012. Do you have a link to the law in 2003?

[CJ7]

Originally Posted by JD Barleycorn

So (and I am not being facetious) you think George Bush AND Dick Cheney committed torture or you think that they SPECIFICALLY ordered someone to be tortured.

I did look up the US code number and it is dated to 2012. Do you have a link to the law in 2003?

its a fact the Bush Cartel redefined the definition of "torture" to fit their own agenda ... regardless how the law (before 03) was worded, it changed.

[timpage]

As usual, clueless buffoon. I don't think this argument is going to be settled here today by examining the United States Code Annotated.

By the way, counting the people that were killed by the insurgents during the Iraq war is legitimate. There wouldn't have been any insurgents doing any killing in Iraq but for George Bush and Dick Cheney.

In any event, I don't vouch for those numbers. But, I know 4,500 Americans died there. And we spent well over a trillion dollars there....and, with interest and care for problems vets will experience in the future, we'll eventually spend trillions more, up to 6 trillion by some estimates I've read.

For what?

So we could destroy Saddam's weapons of mass destruction. Whoops.

So we could create democracy in the middle east and a peaceful, productive Iraq. Whoops.

So we could get rid of Saddam because of his involvement in 9/11. Whoops.

It was all George Bush and Dick Cheney's fantasies, along with the neocons whispering in their ears, that led us into Iraq. They created the scenario and atmosphere that led to the agreement on the war that somebody else mentioned. It was all based on lies created and promulgated by the administration.

The blood of all those dead Americans is on their hands. Is that a war crime you'll find in the United States Code? Probably not. But, in my opinion, it's more of a war crime than waterboarding some prisoner.

Originally Posted by JD Barleycorn

So (and I am not being facetious) you think George Bush AND Dick Cheney committed torture or you think that they SPECIFICALLY ordered someone to be tortured.

I did look up the US code number and it is dated to 2012. Do you have a link to the law in 2003?

[CJ7]

back to the topic

FUCK Bush and Cheney

[JD Barleycorn]

When pronouncing that someone committed crimes you must be specific about what the crime was. Do you want to make charges or just spout opinion?

I want to have someone tell me the basis of this repeated charge. Give me the specifics of what Bush and Cheney did? I have heard no one yet advance that. In case you didn't notice the wording of the law was changed under Obama and not Bush. That is why I asked for a link to the 2003 law which is the law that applies.

The number of dollars is less than a trillion by some small margin. Maybe it makes no difference but lets use real dollars and not the ravings of a left wing, democratic, progressive, columnist for your proof. Up to six trillion you've heard....where did you hear that?

Democracy? What does it look like? Is the democracy (I'll accept democracy in lieu of representative government) in England the same as the one on Germany today or the one in Germany before World War II. How about the democracy in Japan? China claims that they have a democracy as does France, Italy, and Mexico. So what does Iraqi democracy look like? Is it because they vote for their government? I guess they have a democracy then (and they solved the voter fraud problem).
WMDs; In case you haven't noticed there has been some quiet discussion about where Syria got their chemical weapons. The popular theory is that they came from Iraq just like the captured (and rescued) generals said they did.

Loosing men in war is something that every president has had to deal with. It is not a war crime to lose people. It is not even a war crime to make stupid mistakes which kills men for no good reason. We would have to indict every president this country ever had. Even training accidents kill men and if those training exercises were for not good reason....
Some marines died the other day. Will you blame Obama for that?
What is a crime? A crime is when you have the means and the opportunity to save lives and you refuse. Benghazi was a crime, The USS Cole was a crime, SEAL Team six going down in an ambush because Biden couldn't keep his mouth shut was a crime.

You all need to get some lives and quit living in the past or you only care about 2001-2009.

[Yssup Rider]

Originally Posted by CJ7

back to the topic

FUCK Bush and Cheney

And the assholes that rode in on them!

[CJ7]

Originally Posted by JD Barleycorn

When pronouncing that someone committed crimes you must be specific about what the crime was. Do you want to make charges or just spout opinion?

I want to have someone tell me the basis of this repeated charge. Give me the specifics of what Bush and Cheney did? I have heard no one yet advance that. In case you didn't notice the wording of the law was changed under Obama and not Bush. That is why I asked for a link to the 2003 law which is the law that applies.

The number of dollars is less than a trillion by some small margin. Maybe it makes no difference but lets use real dollars and not the ravings of a left wing, democratic, progressive, columnist for your proof. Up to six trillion you've heard....where did you hear that?

Democracy? What does it look like? Is the democracy (I'll accept democracy in lieu of representative government) in England the same as the one on Germany today or the one in Germany before World War II. How about the democracy in Japan? China claims that they have a democracy as does France, Italy, and Mexico. So what does Iraqi democracy look like? Is it because they vote for their government? I guess they have a democracy then (and they solved the voter fraud problem).
WMDs; In case you haven't noticed there has been some quiet discussion about where Syria got their chemical weapons. The popular theory is that they came from Iraq just like the captured (and rescued) generals said they did.

Loosing men in war is something that every president has had to deal with. It is not a war crime to lose people. It is not even a war crime to make stupid mistakes which kills men for no good reason. We would have to indict every president this country ever had. Even training accidents kill men and if those training exercises were for not good reason....
Some marines died the other day. Will you blame Obama for that?
What is a crime? A crime is when you have the means and the opportunity to save lives and you refuse. Benghazi was a crime, The USS Cole was a crime, SEAL Team six going down in an ambush because Biden couldn't keep his mouth shut was a crime.

You all need to get some lives and quit living in the past or you only care about 2001-2009.

no crime was committed, they changed the definition of torture in 02-03 to assure that, ergo;

FUCKEM'

[timpage]

Oh. So if you agree with it politically and ideologically, it isn't a crime. If you disagree with it politically and ideologically, it is a crime. Now, I get it.

Originally Posted by JD Barleycorn

When pronouncing that someone committed crimes you must be specific about what the crime was. Do you want to make charges or just spout opinion?

I want to have someone tell me the basis of this repeated charge. Give me the specifics of what Bush and Cheney did? I have heard no one yet advance that. In case you didn't notice the wording of the law was changed under Obama and not Bush. That is why I asked for a link to the 2003 law which is the law that applies.

The number of dollars is less than a trillion by some small margin. Maybe it makes no difference but lets use real dollars and not the ravings of a left wing, democratic, progressive, columnist for your proof. Up to six trillion you've heard....where did you hear that?

Democracy? What does it look like? Is the democracy (I'll accept democracy in lieu of representative government) in England the same as the one on Germany today or the one in Germany before World War II. How about the democracy in Japan? China claims that they have a democracy as does France, Italy, and Mexico. So what does Iraqi democracy look like? Is it because they vote for their government? I guess they have a democracy then (and they solved the voter fraud problem).
WMDs; In case you haven't noticed there has been some quiet discussion about where Syria got their chemical weapons. The popular theory is that they came from Iraq just like the captured (and rescued) generals said they did.

Loosing men in war is something that every president has had to deal with. It is not a war crime to lose people. It is not even a war crime to make stupid mistakes which kills men for no good reason. We would have to indict every president this country ever had. Even training accidents kill men and if those training exercises were for not good reason....
Some marines died the other day. Will you blame Obama for that?
What is a crime? A crime is when you have the means and the opportunity to save lives and you refuse. Benghazi was a crime, The USS Cole was a crime, SEAL Team six going down in an ambush because Biden couldn't keep his mouth shut was a crime.

You all need to get some lives and quit living in the past or you only care about 2001-2009.

[Yssup Rider]

Don't think he knows WHAT he means!

[JD Barleycorn]

Timpage, CJ you're both smarter than that. I've read some of the things you've posted. Whatzup just needs a nap. He gets cranky when he hasn't had a nap and a cookie.

No where did I say that I support torture. I said that if you make a specific charge then you should be able to detail the charge. You're still just blurting opinion. Think of it like this (maybe even Whatzup can understand...when he wakes up) it is opinion when you say your hometown team is the best (maybe it is and maybe it isn't) but it does not make it any more true if you shout it louder or more often. That is what you do. An argument is where you offer supporting arguments which could be opinion if offered by decent source. This thread started by saying that Bush/Cheney are war criminals. Okay, I will first point out that no one has been convicted of war crimes much less Bush or Cheney. So to say that someone IS a war criminal is wrong. You can say that someone committed war crimes (no conviction yet) but you need to detail the crime(s). Posting a definition does make the grade. You have to show where Bush/Cheney authorized someone to commit said crime and then you have to show that it is a crime. If you can't do that then you are not ready for the conversation.

[CuteOldGuy]

Uh, they have been convicted.

http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/...s-in-absentia/

A segment from the article:

Throughout the week the tribunal was packed with legal experts and law students as witnesses gave testimony and then cross examination by the defence led by lawyer Jason Kay Kit Leon.

The court heard how

Abbas Abid, a 48-year-old engineer from Fallujah in Iraq had his fingernails removed by pliers.

Ali Shalal was attached with bare electrical wires and electrocuted and hung from a wall.

Moazzam Begg was beaten, hooded and put in solitary confinement.

Jameelah was stripped and humiliated, and was used as a human shield whilst being transported by helicopter.

The witnesses also detailed how they have residual injuries till today.

Moazzam Begg, now working as a director for the London-based human rights group Cageprisoners said he was delighted with the verdict, but added: “When people talk about Nuremberg you have to remember those tried were all prosecuted after the war.

“Right now Guantanamo is still open, people are still being held there and are still being tortured there.”

In response to questions about the difference between the Bush and Obama Administrations, he added: “If President Bush was the President of extra-judicial torture then US President Barak Obama is the President of extra judicial killing through drone strikes. Our work has only just begun.”

The prosecution case rested on proving how the decision-makers at the highest level President Bush, Vice-President Cheney, Secretary of Defence Rumsfeld, aided and abetted by the lawyers and the other commanders and CIA officials – all acted in concert. Torture was systematically applied and became an accepted norm.

According to the prosecution, the testimony of all the witnesses exposed a sustained perpetration of brutal, barbaric, cruel and dehumanising course of conduct against them.

These acts of crimes were applied cumulatively to inflict the worst possible pain and suffering, said lawyers.

[TheDaliLama]

Fuck you COG and the horse you rode in on.

[LexusLover]

[JD Barleycorn]

Really? I thought you had more sense COG. Your trial was a PR stunt that lasted a week. Jodie Arias has personally been on the stand for almost three weeks. Do yourself a favor COG and don't cite this again. It is just embarassing. By the way, who was on the defense team..... This little article puts the names of the "justices" out there and the names of the "prosecutors" but where is the list for the defense team? There isn't one. Malaysian Kangaroo Court.