Those that don't know history are doomed. . .

[Randy4Candy]

Originally Posted by pjorourke

I fail to see how it makes any difference if the people that are controlling you life are "elected by the people" or appointed by a Board of Directors. You are fucked either way.

I love the smell of optimism in the morning...lol. Democracy is, after all, an advanced socio-political system and not for the faint of heart or the half-hearted. And being viligent regarding protecting our freedom goes far beyond this past summer's exhibition of attending a rally flashing hand guns. The Second Ammendment is merely an excuse for dick measuring with blood without the First Ammendment. Hmmm, guess that's why the First Ammendment is the FIRST Ammendment.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by macksback

We spend too much money on crap...Teaching you children how to put a condom on a cucumber..

Condom on a cucumber? No damn wonder these kids keep getting pregnant!

Honey did you puy a condom on?
Why of course, you don't believe me check in the Fridge.




Sounds like we need a history in fucn to be the order of the day.

[DFW5Traveler]

"Every child in America entering school at the age of five is insane because he comes to school with certain allegiances to our founding fathers, toward our elected officials, toward his parents, toward a belief in a supernatural being, and toward the sovereignty of this nation as a separate entity. It’s up to you as teachers to make all these sick children well – by creating the international child of the future" - Dr. Chester M. Pierce, Psychiatrist, address to the Childhood International Education Seminar, 1973

"The strength of Marxism obviously does not lie in its view of history or in the prophecies about the future which it bases upon that view, but in its clear insight into the determining influence which is exerted by the economic conditions of man upon his intellectual, ethical and artistic reactions." - Sigmund Freud

"...the subject which will be of most importance politically is Mass Psychology.... The populace will not be allowed to know how its convictions were generated. When the technique has been perfected, every government that has been in charge of education for a generation will be able to control its subjects securely without the need of armies or policemen. As yet there is only one country which has succeeded in creating this politician’s paradise." - The Impact of Science on Society by Bertrand Russell

"We have swallowed all manner of poisonous certainties fed us by our parents, our Sunday and day school teachers, our politicians, our priests, our newspapers, and others with a vested interest in controlling us. ‘Thou shalt become as gods, knowing good and evil,’ good and evil with which to keep children under control, with which to impose local and familial and national loyalties and with which to blind children to their glorious intellectual heritage… The results, the inevitable results, are frustration, inferiority, neurosis and inability to enjoy living, to reason clearly or to make a world fit to live in." - Dr. G. Brock Chisholm, President, World Federation of Mental Health

The only real reason to remove history from the curiculum is to keep the population subdued. History shows us best what not to do. Keep our history alive and factual.

[Sisyphus]

Originally Posted by Camille

Cutting history out of any cirriculum is ridiculous for so many reasons, but it's not socialism. I'm sorry,but the term "socialism" is a term that is BADLY misused in this country as a means of fearmongering.

Agreed. It's one of many political terms of art that get used & abused in general parlance all the time. They've become the modern-day equivalent of "waving the bloody flag"....

Originally Posted by Camille

I do agree that cutting history classes is insane...not just for the culture and heritage aspects but also from a checks and balances point of view. It's naive to think that kids don't need to have a basic handle at least on the past so that they don't go trying to re-invent the wheel again.

C

It may be all of those things...ridiculous, insane, etc. OR, it may just be clever like a fox! How's that little diddy go again?

Who controls the past now controls the future
Who controls the present now controls the past
Who controls the past now controls the future
Who controls the present now?

Originally Posted by ANONONE

Camille,

I have to disagree. It is the first page in the socialist playbook:

Step one: get rid of the teachers of history.

Step two: gain control of media and perception and present party propaganda as elemental truth

Check the ascent of Mussolini and Hitler. National Socialism is the drain we are now circling. At the core, this ideology lulls the oppressed into submission via dependence on the state from cradle to grave, crushing independent thought and replacing it with group-think via double-speak.

Sadly it is insidious, because often the perpetrators are not even aware they are merely in the grips of a full on egomaniac attack which is perfectly fostered by the conditions that are ripe for the spread of socialism: Leaders shrug and say: "I saw a need and filled it."

They prey on the needs of society. Get the trains to run on time and make the lines for bread shorter and you are a hero. . .until it is too late.

If you have ever muttered the phrase: "there oughta be a law. . ." you are a carrier of the disease of socialism.

If you ar ein the hobby: Libertarian is the only way to fly!

Hate to break it to you but it's the first page of any totalitarian/statist playbook....left or right. If you think Hitler & Mussolini were Socialists, then please get thee - quickly! - to one of those history classes whose demise you lament before they all be gone! The Nazis may have called themselves Socialists but that don't make it so. They had little use for - and even less understanding of - economics. They were about power for power's sake & weren't bothered by the use of terror to achieve it.

A libertarian is concerned with the means to statist/tyrannical ends be they from the right or the left. PJ's graphic demonstrates a concept I've long supported. The spectrum of political views is much more accurately represented by a circle than it is by a line. The far left & the far right have much more in common with each other than either has with the center.

Wish I could claim the idea as mine! Alas, I think I picked it up in history class!!

[Iaintliein]

I recall reading some time ago that the majority of collage degrees no longer require any history.

Some of the "man on the street" type interviews I've seen of graduating HS seniors were pretty darned scary in that regard.

The definitions of fascism, socialism, communism, .... ism really are irrelevant since in practice they are all interchangeable from the point of view of their victims, 9x19 parabellum, vs 9x18 Makarov is about the only difference. The communists are no less in it for the power than the Nazis which means the Nazis were no less socialist than the communists. So I've got to disagree in that regard Sisiphus. But one thing we do agree on is that the tyranny of the religious right is no less than the tyranny of the Marxist left.

Libertarianism is logic if the assumption is made that people really do want to be free. The fact that it has not vanquished all other forms of political ideology, to my mind, means that not all people want to be free, some prefer safety, and some prefer power to all other things.

". . . keep you doped with religion, and sex, and tv," J. Lennon

[Guest050715-1]

One of the three best teachers I ever had was a U.S. History teacher. He, like the other two “best” teachers, took his job seriously. The other two were a literature teacher in high school and my College and Matrix Algebra classes’ teacher in college. Many of my teachers were very good or good teachers, but some were just really glorified babysitters who imparted knowledge to xyz student if said student chose to learn. Being a teacher is a noble calling. Teachers should be well paid and treated with respect and the "lifers" should be weeded out.

History is one of the most important things people can learn from a practical standpoint beyond the three R’s. It tells us who we are by telling us where we came from; who our enemies are and whether to accept said enemies as enemies; who our allies are and whether to accept said allies as allies; where to step to avoid certain pitfalls; whom to trust and distrust with regard to past histories certain people(s); etc. It is invaluable because it tells us the crucial moment that changed the course of any society for better or for worse. For example, we had only a couple/three battles of WWII fought on our soil; therefore what we call the war between the Allied and. the Axis powers the Second World War. The Soviets, and now the Russians and I assume the former Soviet Block countries too, called WWII The Great Patriotic War. They have given WWII an even more passionate, Omni-powerful name because of the great sacrifices they paid to the advancing Nazis. They had one rifle to two men ratio. They burned their towns and fields as the retreated from the Nazis. Knowing history teaches us the difference between our present and where we came from; between “our” collective experience, “their” collective experience and the combined peoples of our world’s experience. Hopefully we take a bit of right and wrong as a sweet or bitter pill along the way somewhere to mitigate the bad and enhance the good.

[atlcomedy]

Originally Posted by gnadfly

Generally, with the different History and Learning Channels on cable and the internet, reducing the number of History teachers from High School and replacing them with these resources could be an option. Most of my HS History teachers where football coaches who used the time to interact with the cheerleaders. I doubt they knew who Sitting Bull was. I got tired of helping them find major landmarks on World maps.

Many colleges teach World and US history this way today.

Never really gave it much thought, but our history dept. was dominated by the coaching staff. The real plum position was phys ed teacher...didn't even need to bring a change of clothes...just wear that warm-up suit all day long...

Originally Posted by macksback

You should have taken your shoe anf throwin' it at that buffoon.We spend too much money on crap...Teaching you children how to put a condom on a cucumber.We should be putting our money into reading,math,science,history. 12 years of reading,math,science and history and we will have smart kids.Everything elese could be taught in college.

I suspect waiting until college is a little late for the birds and the bees talk...

Originally Posted by Iaintliein

I recall reading some time ago that the majority of collage degrees no longer require any history.

Some of the "man on the street" type interviews I've seen of graduating HS seniors were pretty darned scary in that regard.

The definitions of fascism, socialism, communism, .... ism really are irrelevant since in practice they are all interchangeable from the point of view of their victims, 9x19 parabellum, vs 9x18 Makarov is about the only difference. The tyranny of the religious right is no less than the tyranny of the Marxist left.

Libertarianism is logic if the assumption is made that people really do want to be free. The fact that it has not vanquished all other forms of political ideology, to my mind, means that not all people want to be free, some prefer safety, and some prefer power to all other things.

". . . keep you doped with religion, and sex, and tv," J. Lennon

Yeah...possible to get a B.S./B.A. from some well regarded universities without taking a class offered by the history dept. I'm proof of it. But then again I had some pretty competent FB coaches teaching me hostory in H.S. and really didn't see the point in taking the same subject again....

[WTF]

Originally Posted by atlcomedy

I had some pretty competent FB coaches teaching me hostory in H.S. and really didn't see the point in taking the same subject again....

Looks like they graded on a big fat curve in the spelling dept.!

[gnadfly]

Originally Posted by OliviaHoward

...For example, we had only a couple/three battles of WWII fought on our soil; therefore what we call the war between the Allied and. the Axis powers the Second World War. The Soviets, and now the Russians and I assume the former Soviet Block countries too, called WWII The Great Patriotic War. They have given WWII an even more passionate, Omni-powerful name because of the great sacrifices they paid to the advancing Nazis. They had one rifle to two men ratio. They burned their towns and fields as the retreated from the Nazis. Knowing history teaches us the difference between our present and where we came from; between “our” collective experience, “their” collective experience and the combined peoples of our world’s experience. Hopefully we take a bit of right and wrong as a sweet or bitter pill along the way somewhere to mitigate the bad and enhance the good.

You wouldn't know WWII happened from my American History classes. History 'stopped' around 1933. Never got around to WWII. I even questioned my history teachers about it without a reasonable explanation. I graduated in 1977.

The battle of the Aleutian Islands happened against the Japanese around 1943. Found out about it on the Military Channel and the interweb. No HS instructor needed.

[atlcomedy]

Originally Posted by gnadfly

You wouldn't know WWII happened from my American History classes. History 'stopped' around 1933. Never got around to WWII. I even questioned my history teachers about it without a reasonable explanation. I graduated in 1977.

The battle of the Aleutian Islands happened against the Japanese around 1943. Found out about it on the Military Channel and the interweb. No HS instructor needed.

Oh, in my textbooks history started back up for the Civil Rights Movement. One would think Martin Luther King was George Washington by the amount of coverage he got.

[Sa_artman]

Originally Posted by ANONONE

Camille,

I have to disagree. It is the first page in the socialist playbook:

Step one: get rid of the teachers of history.

Step two: gain control of media and perception and present party propaganda as elemental truth

Check the ascent of Mussolini and Hitler. National Socialism is the drain we are now circling. At the core, this ideology lulls the oppressed into submission via dependence on the state from cradle to grave, crushing independent thought and replacing it with group-think via double-speak.

Sadly it is insidious, because often the perpetrators are not even aware they are merely in the grips of a full on egomaniac attack which is perfectly fostered by the conditions that are ripe for the spread of socialism: Leaders shrug and say: "I saw a need and filled it."

They prey on the needs of society. Get the trains to run on time and make the lines for bread shorter and you are a hero. . .until it is too late.

If you have ever muttered the phrase: "there oughta be a law. . ." you are a carrier of the disease of socialism.

Well, one thing History has taught us is that fear mongering is the first step to controlling the masses. Hyping through hysteria won't further any cause, only puts you more in line with the anarchists or is libertarian socialism?

[..]

Originally Posted by Camille

Cutting history out of any cirriculum is ridiculous for so many reasons, but it's not socialism. I'm sorry,but the term "socialism" is a term that is BADLY misused in this country as a means of fearmongering.

merci beaucoup madame! or as we say around here: Word!

The problem is the term "socialism" has a very broad meaning but in english (esp. in american english) it is unfortunately used very wrongly only in the sense of Marx.

In continental Europe or Israel the main meaning of "socialism" is "social democracy".

[..]

Originally Posted by ANONONE

Step one: get rid of the teachers of history.

Wrong! esp. a totalitarian gov't uses and abuses history to support their POV.

Originally Posted by ANONONE

National Socialism is the drain we are now circling.

Well if it would be that way the Nazis would have already punished you for your avatar's tagline "Lecken Künstler". Correct is "Leckkünstler", or better "Zungenkünstler". HTH.

[Sisyphus]

Originally Posted by OliviaHoward

One of the three best teachers I ever had was a U.S. History teacher. He, like the other two “best” teachers, took his job seriously. The other two were a literature teacher in high school and my College and Matrix Algebra classes’ teacher in college. Many of my teachers were very good or good teachers, but some were just really glorified babysitters who imparted knowledge to xyz student if said student chose to learn. Being a teacher is a noble calling. Teachers should be well paid and treated with respect and the "lifers" should be weeded out.

All good points! I didn't take many history courses in college, in part, because I wasn't that impressed with the faculty. I had some excellent HS history teachers, though. But, then I was a motivated student when it came to learning, in general, and history, in particular. My parents, especially my father, valued education (probably because he didn't have much of one himself - he was largely self-taught) and helped me learn to put history in context. While the other families were going to Disneyworld or the beach, we were going to Williamsburg, Yorktown, Bull Run, Gettysburg, and the museums of DC.

Teaching is a noble calling, indeed. It's also a job that must be damn tough at times! I don't how you reach a mind - young or old - that just doesn't value what you are attempting to impart.

Originally Posted by OliviaHoward

History is one of the most important things people can learn from a practical standpoint beyond the three R’s.

If by "beyond" you mean "every bit as important as"....absolutely!! Very little to Read, Right, & 'Rount about (,'Rastro!) without history to put it all into some sort of context!

Originally Posted by OliviaHoward

the Russians and I assume the former Soviet Block countries too, called WWII The Great Patriotic War. They have given WWII an even more passionate, Omni-powerful name because of the great sacrifices they paid to the advancing Nazis. They had one rifle to two men ratio.

Somebody's been reading her Beevor (, Antony)....very impressive!!!
[Don't let a little thing like an explanation stop you, folks! Insert your beaver joke here, ______________________________]


Every time I see that ratio (2 men to each rifle) I find it difficult to comprehend. Gotta be a little disconcerting...attempting to fight with somebody else right behind you waiting for THEIR turn with YOUR rifle!! But, then again....it's not YOUR rifle...or life....both are the property of the State!

[Randy4Candy]

I want a threesome with Camille and OliviaHoward!!! I may not even get around to pulling out junior...lol.