Who Rules America?

[shanm]

Originally Posted by SinsOfTheFlesh

Yes I understand how taxes work quite well thank you. Don't speak to me about "talking points" when you parrot them. The idea that the wealthy pay less in taxes than middle class Americans is a myth. They pay a higher rate on their income. What you are talking about are capitol gains taxes, which is a whole different topic.
Again you missed the point by a mile. There are CEO's that make $1 in earned income a year, Mark Zuckerberg, Larry Elison among them. Does that equate to the amount of income they actually earn? No. You're caught up in the IRS definition of "earned income", which almost never equates the the actual amount that a person earns in a year. So in that case "capitol" gains are not a "whole different topic". We need to dis-incentivize the income and tax shielding advantages that capital gains gives you.


Again, no I am not parroting anyone's talking points. You are delusional if you think the EITC creates an incentive. The only reward it provides is a reward for popping out babies. It is an unabashed attempt at redistributing wealth. Nothing more.
Yeah, I would love to see you back up your bullshit (for once) with actual facts. I don't know about in Idiotville, but no sane person pops out babies to get a tax credit in the real world.
You are partially correct that the EITC wasn't always a point of political divide; Reagan actually extended it himself. It has been one of the most successful governmental programs in history. It's only the current repubtards who are against an expansion because....well because Obama is the one advocating it. There is a reason I used the word NEO-conservative.


I don't give a crap if talking about paying down our debt is idealistic or not. Again, I am very well aware of how our debt works. $250 billion (WITH A B) is not a 'misconception' that it is bleeding us dry. That is a staggering amount to pay in interest alone. I don't know about you, but I absolutely can't stand to pay interest on anything. Not a car loan, credit card debt, or student loans. It is simply money pissed down the drain with no return in value. Is it a necessary evil? Yes. No one could buy a home without a home mortgage, and few college students could hope to get an education without accumulating student loans. But the prudent person dispenses with debt as quickly as possible, rather than dragging it out year after year by only paying the interest on their debt, rather than paying down the debt itself. We've mortgaged our children and our grandchildren's future because we lack the wherewithal to tighten our belts and live within our means as a nation. Plain and simple.
And by the way, these aren't anyone's talking points. I remember choking when Cheney said debts don't matter. That more than anything else is why I voted a straight Democrat ticket in 2004 and again in 2006. I don't really care which party finally pulls its heads out of its ass and returns to fiscal common sense, as long as one party does. Republicans have been no better at fiscal discipline that Democrats have been. The only difference is that conservatives are more apt to hold Republicans responsible for spending like drunken sailors than liberals are

Again, I've already proven to you that over half our actual debt (which is about 5 trillion less than the fiscal figure), is owed to ourselves. That means that the "interest payments" are being paid to either the states or ordinary citizens like you or me. Therefore, your argument straight up goes out the window.
For the other half, I agree that we need to control our borrowing and lending. But the paranoia over it is blown way out of proportion. Heaven forbid that I might actually agree with Dick Cheney, but I'd like to modify his argument and say that the "debt doesn't matter" to the extent people think it does. There are many more figures that represent a true indicator of the economy's financial health. I don't really blame you for thinking otherwise. Very few people even understand how the debt works.
Now I hope this doesn't come across as an argument in favor of us having more debt. I'm merely explaining why it is the way it is. It is something that needs to be controlled, and that should be unilateral thinking.

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[CuteOldGuy]

Originally Posted by shanm

Where the fuck did I say that you blithering idiot?

I advocated a more efficient tax system with less taxation for everyone, that doesn't equate to more government. That's also something more substantive than anything you've posted in your entire time here, and that includes your latest asinine post. Why don't you take your bitching and moaning and get the fuck out.

You still want government control. That's like a farmer realizing he's losing too many chickens, so he increases the number of wolves guarding the henhouse.


What's a fair share? Yeah. Define that. I have an idea. My idea of fair is that if you work for it, or invest in it, honestly, it's yours. You keep it. Government spends way too much. Stop it. Fund only Constitutional and necessary government services through tariffs, excise taxes and consumption taxes.

[shanm]

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

You still want government control. That's like a farmer realizing he's losing too many chickens, so he increases the number of wolves guarding the henhouse.


What's a fair share? Yeah. Define that. I have an idea. My idea of fair is that if you work for it, or invest in it, honestly, it's yours. You keep it. Government spends way too much. Stop it. Fund only Constitutional and necessary government services through tariffs, excise taxes and consumption taxes.

You're just another parrot, repeating the same old worn-out, impractical tea party zingers.

Think about it for a second, how do you propose we'd fund our military through "tariffs, excise taxes and consumption taxes"? Do you have any idea how much money it takes to fund those "constitutional and necessary government services"? There's a reason our country is in debt, you moron.
Those services include police departments, federal agencies (like the FDA, EPA, DOJ, DOE, DOL etc etc), those are all "necessary".
Let me explain to you what Obama meant when he said "you didn't build that". When you make something in this country, yes "you didn't build that".....on your own. You used roads built by the government, you used the safety and legal protection promoted by the government, you used educational services funded by the U.S government, basically your entire American dream is built on the infrastructure provided for by your government. Try taking "yourself" to Iraq and building your American dream, see how that works out for you. Just because it makes you feel like a rebel isn't a good enough reason to eliminate income taxes. Income taxes, albeit on a sufficiently low level, are necessary to keep the best country on the planet afloat. What you're advocating is us going back to the wild west, driving on dirt roads and eating worm food.
If necessary government is your idea of "big government" then yes, you're right, I'm all for it. You should really consider moving to a place without a functional government, like Mexico or Afghanistan.

[WombRaider]

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

You still want government control. That's like a farmer realizing he's losing too many chickens, so he increases the number of wolves guarding the henhouse.


What's a fair share? Yeah. Define that. I have an idea. My idea of fair is that if you work for it, or invest in it, honestly, it's yours. You keep it. Government spends way too much. Stop it. Fund only Constitutional and necessary government services through tariffs, excise taxes and consumption taxes.

Government, in some instances, is very necessary. If you don't get that or agree with it, you're probably in the wrong country. What's ironic is that this vision you have of America is a vision that never even really existed. Once you start growing and increasing your population, you just can't scale up that small-time government feel. Not when you've got over 300 million heterogeneous voices. Democracy stipulates each vote as equal. You know as well as I do that spread out over that many people, the intelligence quotient alone will not allow an equally informed vote. We're too big for what you want to have us implement. Too many voices want too many different things. It just wouldn't work.

[SeekingTruth]

Originally Posted by i'va biggen

Shit, thought it was pussy

Same goes to you handsome!

[SeekingTruth]

Originally Posted by SinsOfTheFlesh

The sooner you get over the idea that its not fair that you aren't super rich, and stop worrying about how much others have, the sooner you will learn to appreciate what you do have.

Guess what? The world is full of rich people. The world is full of poor people. The world is full of people in between.

You aren't nearly as poor as you think you are, and its not the fault of the fat cat wealthy you despise so much that you aren't as wealthy as you think you should be.

You had the incredible good fortune to be born in a country that offers educational opportunities most of the rest of the world can't even dream of. You were born into a country where something as simple as taking a hot shower is taken for granted as an every day event. 11% of the globe's population will be born, live a full life, and never once take a hot shower. Not once. Don't even get me started on what percentage of the world population will never own a car, never once sit inside an air conditioned structure of any kind, never own a microwave oven, coffee pot, or cell phone.

And yet you think you have it so bad. If you were REALLY invested in trying to make this world a little more fair, then get off your ass and go join the Peace Corps. There are bridges that need building, Schools that need building. Water purification systems that need building. Go deliver basic medicine and foodstuffs to people who will never once in their life taste chocolate, ice cream, or french fries.

But we both know you aren't REALLY that concerned about real inequality. Your only concern is that YOU, PERSONALLY, just aren't as equal as you THINK you should be.

I am not necessarily talking about myself. You insinuate at lot about me. No, I am not super rich and have no desire to have more money than I know what to do with. Just enough to be comfortable and it's not much. I am not jealous of rich people either, just think they should pay their fair share of taxes and that our government spends too much on unnecessary data collection via NSA and other wasteful government organizations, all in the name of security. This wasted money could be reinforcing our social safety nets.

A lot of these people (who you call lazy) want to work, but cannot find jobs (at least jobs that pay enough to provide a decent shelter and food). I actually do have a serious mental disorder and was able to get by up until now. Expanded Medicaid has been a godsend for me and I am finally able to get the much needed medical attention I never got before when I self medicated with alcohol and could not afford insurance. Mental illness is real and now, close to 1/3 of all disability cases are mental disorders, second only to musculoskeletal disorders. I was completely unaware that I had any mental disorder at all (just thought I was alcoholic) until I got help. My drinking is now under control and my life is improving.

In addition, a lot of the population is now aging and becoming disabled due to aging. These working class citizens have paid into the system, just like me, and are entitled to receive these benefits. By the way, I have never been lazy and supported myself and my daughter, who is now a neonatal nurse, alone. We never had a lot of money, but I continued to validate her uniqueness and good qualities. Today, she is a very well adjusted and resilient woman with a good head on her shoulders. She is my greatest accomplishment.

Social safety nets are important and over half of Americans want to pay taxes to keep our safety nets. Your idea of me is wrong, however, what you think of me is none of my business. Have a good day and maybe if you wrote a shorter comment, I would take the time the read the whole thing.

[SeekingTruth]

Originally Posted by WombRaider

None of it was inconvenient to me. It's just more rhetoric. The world isn't FULL of rich people, firstly. It is, however, full of poor people. That much you got right. Your diatribe against others having it worse is meaningless. I wasn't born somewhere else. I have no say in where I was born, so that's just a random crapshoot.

I wonder if she has ever been homeless???

Amen, WombRaider!

[CuteOldGuy]

Originally Posted by shanm

You're just another parrot, repeating the same old worn-out, impractical tea party zingers.

Think about it for a second, how do you propose we'd fund our military through "tariffs, excise taxes and consumption taxes"? Make it smaller. Do you have any idea how much money it takes to fund those "constitutional and necessary government services"? There's a reason our country is in debt, you moron. Yes. Congress spends too much.
Those services include police departments, federal agencies (like the FDA, EPA, DOJ, DOE, DOL etc etc), those are all "necessary". Police departments are local. The rest are unnecessary.
Let me explain to you what Obama meant when he said "you didn't build that". When you make something in this country, yes "you didn't build that".....on your own. You used roads built by the government, you used the safety and legal protection promoted by the government, you used educational services funded by the U.S government, basically your entire American dream is built on the infrastructure provided for by your government. Try taking "yourself" to Iraq and building your American dream, see how that works out for you. Just because it makes you feel like a rebel isn't a good enough reason to eliminate income taxes. Income taxes, albeit on a sufficiently low level, are necessary to keep the best country on the planet afloat. What you're advocating is us going back to the wild west, driving on dirt roads and eating worm food. Bullshit.
If necessary government is your idea of "big government" then yes, you're right, I'm all for it. You should really consider moving to a place without a functional government, like Mexico or Afghanistan. That is stupid.

Nice apology for statism, but stupid. You want to know why those roads were built? You know, the ones we should worship government for? Government took our money, and overpaid some contractor. Do you seriously think that without government we'd be sitting in our houses just wondering how we're going to the mall?


Tired, old, liberal logic.

[IIFFOFRDB]

Originally Posted by SeekingTruth

I am not necessarily talking about myself. You insinuate at lot about me. No, I am not super rich and have no desire to have more money than I know what to do with. Just enough to be comfortable and it's not much. I am not jealous of rich people either, just think they should pay their fair share of taxes and that our government spends too much on unnecessary data collection via NSA and other wasteful government organizations, all in the name of security. This wasted money could be reinforcing our social safety nets.

A lot of these people (who you call lazy) want to work, but cannot find jobs (at least jobs that pay enough to provide a decent shelter and food). I actually do have a serious mental disorder and was able to get by up until now. Expanded Medicaid has been a godsend for me and I am finally able to get the much needed medical attention I never got before when I self medicated with alcohol and could not afford insurance. Mental illness is real and now, close to 1/3 of all disability cases are mental disorders, second only to musculoskeletal disorders. I was completely unaware that I had any mental disorder at all (just thought I was alcoholic) until I got help. My drinking is now under control and my life is improving.

In addition, a lot of the population is now aging and becoming disabled due to aging. These working class citizens have paid into the system, just like me, and are entitled to receive these benefits. By the way, I have never been lazy and supported myself and my daughter, who is now a neonatal nurse, alone. We never had a lot of money, but I continued to validate her uniqueness and good qualities. Today, she is a very well adjusted and resilient woman with a good head on her shoulders. She is my greatest accomplishment.

Social safety nets are important and over half of Americans want to pay taxes to keep our safety nets. Your idea of me is wrong, however, what you think of me is none of my business. Have a good day and maybe if you wrote a shorter comment, I would take the time the read the whole thing.

Why did you start this thread? You're getting your "entitled" check and healthcare... spill your guts at a AA meeting and spare us... Thanks

[SeekingTruth]

Originally Posted by SinsOfTheFlesh

1. The rich do pay their fair share. They pay their fair share, as well as my fair share, your fair share, and the fair share of many others.

2. Not only should we not expand the EITC, we should eliminate it.

3. I agree we need to cut taxes across the board - but not until we've balanced our budget and paid down our debt. We spend $250 billion on interest alone every year. Just imagine what we could do with $250 billion every year if we weren't saddled with so much debt. First things first. We can't afford to reduce revenue when we keep overspending the revenue we generate now.

4. I have more sympathy for the child in Africa than I have for the single mother of 3 trying to raise her kids on minimum wage. Just as you and I basically got lucky by being born in this country, that child in Africa didn't get to choose where to be born either. The risk of that child dying of malnutrition or preventable disease is not due to the child's irresponsible choices.

The single mother struggling on minimum wage cannot say the same thing. In a country that provides access to birth control for free, or for a fee based on a sliding scale, as well as access to safe and legal abortions, there is absolutely, positively, no excuse for any woman to have a child in this country that she cannot afford. Yeah, that is a hard attitude to take, but I really don't care. I am 100% in support of every citizen having the freedom to succeed in this country. The other side of that coin is allowing citizens the freedom to fail. Social programs are an important safety net for societies. What we've created though, are safety hammocks.

No, life isn't always fair. There are people who will work their fingers to the bone til the day they die, without every amassing wealth that they can pass down to their children. Meanwhile, there are people who will never know a hard day's work, but who will enjoy the privileges that wealth brings. There is no substitute for hard work, but sometimes luck brings more reward than hard work ever can.

All I'm saying is that railing against the wealthy is not the way to solve that single mother's problems. Introducing her to birth control, and giving her a brochure to her local community or tech college will help her out far more than taking another bite out of the wallet of the wealthy in order to just give her more free stuff. Which, in case you didn't realize it, is the point of Debbie's threads here, as well as most of her other link vomits, disguised as threads.

What about the gal living with her boyfriend and paying half the bills. Says he wants the baby, then splits when baby is born, leaving her holding the bag? Is that fair?? You and your friend seem only to think in terms of black and white. I didn't get child support until my daughter was 8 years old, when I finally found a free program for getting child support if you couldn't afford an attorney. After that, he got fired, and I actually only received child support for a few years.

By the way, I definitely do believe in birth control, so you got that right.

Having a different opinion is great, but no need to put down the opinions of others who don't agree with you. Maybe you should take a cold shower or masturbate so you can dissipate some of that rage.

[shanm]

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

Nice apology for statism, but stupid. You want to know why those roads were built? You know, the ones we should worship government for? Government took our money, and overpaid some contractor. Do you seriously think that without government we'd be sitting in our houses just wondering how we're going to the mall?


Tired, old, liberal logic.

Most states recieve FEDERAL funding for their programs stupid. Many states, including Texas, don't even have a state tax. A state tax is equivalent to an income tax, it's taken straight from your paycheck.

You obviously have no clue how the public system works, do you? Open any economics 101 book and it will tell you what the criteria for a public good is.

A public good has to be both non-excludable and non-rivalrous. This means that you (as the provider) can not exclude people from using that good, and your use (as the consumer) does not limit other people from using the good. These goods are chosen to be made publicly available because their use would either result in unfair capitalist practices or because many would be excluded from their use in a free-market, for-profit system.
Take your road example. Say that roads are privatized: would you be willing to pay a dollar every time you leave your home just to use the road outside? Because, if you don't, no one will build those roads because there is not much profit to be made. In fact, the companies can charge whatever the hell they want because some people will have to use the roads no matter what.
Secondly, say that you live out of the way in back-hill country. If the government didn't provide for roads leading there you and the five others who frequent that area will have no one to provide road access and safety to your home, because private contractors do not find it profitable to provide you with it.

You obviously have not thought this one through. The government might be inefficient and wasteful, but there is a reason it exists. I am not saying that we shouldn't cut wasteful spending or eliminate inefficiency. Those are simply the downsides of these governmental agencies operating in a non-profit environment. But to say that we should move back to NO federal government is akin to saying we should move back to the wild west. Quite literally. You will have no one policing your food quality. You will have no one checking your water. You will have no one controlling air pollution. I could go on. These are just a few problems in the massive and utter failure you are proposing.

[CuteOldGuy]

That's bullshit. You think anything worth doing requires that the government do it. Government has destroyed education. Get them out. The FDA is owned by Monsanto and Big Pharma. Get them out. Similar for most every other government function. You like government. Good for you.

[shanm]

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

That's bullshit. You think anything worth doing requires that the government do it. Government has destroyed education. Get them out. The FDA is owned by Monsanto and Big Pharma. Get them out. Similar for most every other government function. You like government. Good for you.

Oh look we've got joey badass on here! He doesn't like government, what a little rebel!

If you're so concerned about education, send your kids to a private school. (then live on baked beans for the rest of your life).

If you think for one second that a privatized FDA would not be in line with giant corporations funneling them money then you are seriously deluded.

"similar to most every other government function"

Like I said to SOTF, I can't blame you. You are both absolutely ignorant on the way things work. You decry politicians but you two actually make perfect ones yourselves; you can make utterly ridiculous promises without, for one second, considering the sheer impossibility of what you are suggesting.

[WombRaider]

Originally Posted by shanm

Oh look we've got joey badass on here! He doesn't like government, what a little rebel!

If you're so concerned about education, send your kids to a private school. (then live on baked beans for the rest of your life).

If you think for one second that a privatized FDA would not be in line with giant corporations funneling them money then you are seriously deluded.

"similar to most every other government function"

Like I said to SOTF, I can't blame you. You are both absolutely ignorant on the way things work. You decry politicians but you two actually make perfect ones yourselves; you can make utterly ridiculous promises without, for one second, considering the sheer impossibility of what you are suggesting.

the highlighted portion hits the nail on the head. They are calling for all these changes, with absolutely no idea on how implementation would go. Or if it would even be possible. This is the 'beauty' of the conservative. They get to sit back and decry the evils of the system, while suggesting change that can never be implemented. Then, when the system breaks, they will say I told you so. It's classic.

[shanm]

Originally Posted by WombRaider

the highlighted portion hits the nail on the head. They are calling for all these changes, with absolutely no idea on how implementation would go. Or if it would even be possible. This is the 'beauty' of the conservative. They get to sit back and decry the evils of the system, while suggesting change that can never be implemented. Then, when the system breaks, they will say I told you so. It's classic.

I think he will be better off in Tikrit. Much less "government" over there.