Why we need 'death panels'

[WTF]

Originally Posted by The2Dogs

Mine are questions, not answers.
I have no problem with an honest discussion of quality of life versus being allowed to die with as little suffering as possible. But, to have care denied when not only wanted but needed to continue to live and be denied because it is too expensive is wrong. That is a strawman argument and not at all wtf we are talking about. If by denying the care, no improvement on the time remaining or quality of life is possible, then and only then shoud a panel assist in the decision making process. That is WTF we are talking about.

The real problem is that the government has involved itself in the insurance business by way of taxing us to pay for future care. Now that care has become so expensive, the government is seeking ways to shirk that responsibility. Just like a private company would. Do you think for a second that a private insurance company would keep paying out more than they are taking in?

There are many ways to reduce the cost of medicare as well as the outflow of money in SS without compromising the care that has been paid for in advance. Paid for in advance???... not enough was paid.The cost have spiraled out of control. The fact is, 25% of all Medicare spending goes to the 5% of recipients who die each year --with 80% of that in the last two months of life. AND YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH TRYING TO FIX THIS?

Then let's have honest discussion about this.

JD, COG that leaves you liars out of the discussion. Go join Sara Palin in the corner.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by The2Dogs

It may seem absurd to look at it in that method but at what point do you say it stops. Why should it be a panel that starts by deciding that the cost to allow you to live is not worth it?

At what point? How about the point when we run out of money. Are you willing to pay more taxes? Healthcare is not free you know.

This is where the Tea Party proves they are wacko a do's. The math does not work. We do not have the money. they want lower taxes and more end of life care.

THAT MATH DOES NOT WORK.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by gnadfly

Fuc Grandma - WCB

Is this really "Fuc Grandma"?


Especially when combined with the growing evidence supporting the benefits of less-expensive, palliative hospice care that allows people to enjoy their last days on this earth in peace at home, not poked, prodded and intubated, floating in and out of consciousness under the fluorescent lights of a $30,000-a-night hospital room.


It has always been "FUC Grandma if she wants to bankrupt her kids and grandkids... to live two weeks longer''

[WTF]

Originally Posted by JD Barleycorn

I guess a lot of people here owe Sarah Palin an apology. She was right and you were wrong. Are you man enough to admit it?

George Bernard Shaw

George Benard Shaw said that?

Sara Palin is the worst of the worst. Instead of having an honest discussion where this country could have saved huge amounts of money and old folks could die with dignity, she fuc'd everything up with her "Death Panels" BS. Talk about low information voters....she appealled to dumbass's like you.....and COG.

How can anybody be aganist this? It reduces the deficit and restores diginity to death.

[timpage]

For god's sake, is there anything in the whole wide world that you people don't blame the government for? This isn't a government problem, the topic of the discussion is the government's attempts to solve the problem.

Health care is absurdly expensive and that is 90% of the problem. We've reached the point where a 5 hour visit to an emergency room will cost between $10,000 and $30,000, depending on the care provided and the tests performed. A week in the ICU will cost $100,000 in some facilities. Some routine prescription medications are $50 a pill. Read Stephen Brill's excellent article that was in Time recently if you want to get a feel for what the real problem is.

Regarding the original post, the usual idiots obfuscate the issue with their fantasy doomsday death panel scenarios. Which, of course, prevents any sort of meaningful discourse on the topic. Nobody is talking about denying a grandma, who is in good health, life-saving or necessary medical care. The topic is how much do we spend to keep a terminally ill person, who has no quality of life and is probably not even conscious, alive for a few more months?

Advances in healthcare allow physicians to prolong the life of terminally ill patients for months, sometimes years and frequently that occurs when the patient is in a vegetative or semi-vegetative state. We're talking about people who, just a few years ago, would have passed away quickly as a result of their illness, but who now can be kept alive for significant periods of time....at a cost of hundreds of thousands, or even millions, of dollars.

Obviously, each case is different. Each case has to be evaluated on its own merits. The best scenario has already been pointed out: a family that puts a living will and medical directives in place that prevent the scenario from occurring. But, when that doesn't happen, exactly how much money should we spend to keep a 90 year old comatose patient, with terminal cancer, alive for a few more weeks, at a cost of $25,000 or $50,000 or $100,000 a week?

Originally Posted by The2Dogs

Mine are questions, not answers.
I have no problem with an honest discussion of quality of life versus being allowed to die with as little suffering as possible. But, to have care denied when not only wanted but needed to continue to live and be denied because it is too expensive is wrong. If by denying the care, no improvement on the time remaining or quality of life is possible, then and only then shoud a panel assist in the decision making process.

The real problem is that the government has involved itself in the insurance business by way of taxing us to pay for future care. Now that care has become so expensive, the government is seeking ways to shirk that responsibility.

There are many ways to reduce the cost of medicare as well as the outflow of money in SS without compromising the care that has been paid for in advance.

[JD Barleycorn]

timmy, if government didn't get involved in medicine (education, unions, research, etc) then they wouldn't get blamed and you would sleep better at night. That is the solution, government goes back to what it is supposed to be and about 1/4 the size that it is.

Sarah Palin was right, you were wrong. A man apologizes to a woman when he screws up. WTF, you're not much of a man are you?

Do five minutes of research on George Bernard Shaw and the Fabian Society. Where do you think the idea of concentration camps and mass euthanasia came from?

How about some words from the man himself: (see at 35 seconds in) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQvsf2MUKRQ It goes on to say that this is a socialist meme.

I do like the part at 2:33 that the left were against Hitler because he distorted Marxism (you see they thought Hitler was a Marxist though a bad one) beyond recogntion. That the death camps should have been occupied by the rich and not by nationality. Nice bunch you all represent.

As for the useless eater comment, it has been in wide spread usage for many years and is not credited to any one person but Shaw was one of the most influencial people using the term and concept....unless you count someone like Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Jung, etc.

Since we started on the subject of useless eaters here is the list:

Who then is a useless eater? Based on the basic premise of non productivity as defined, the “useless eater” can be defined by the list below.
1. Pensioners
2. Handicapped
3. Hospitalized (chronic or ambulatory life support)
4. Unemployed
5. Mentally Challenged Persons
6. Prisoners
7. Dissenters and undesirables
How many are there in each group?
1. 100 million (2011) to 160 million (US 2025). 1 in 3.3 soon to be 1 in 2: Approx. (2025)
2. 52 million or about 1 in 5 complained of some level of disability in 2009
3. 81.5 million, many seniors = 25 % population
4. 35 million (2011 US; 9.2 % Jul 2011)
5. 1.5 million (those who faced mental conditions at least once in life)
6. 2.4 million (US ~.8 % population incarcerated)
7. Unknown but on the increase
Given the figures above, some of which are hard to find and some estimates, those who qualify as “useless eaters” range between 272.4 million (2011) to 330 million by 2025. That figure ranges between about 87.41% (Sept. 2011) to 95 % (est. 2025) of the population. Even now, that is the majority of the population. These figures are derived for the US population by census set at 312.222 million people overall for 2011. Given all these “useless eaters” what then is going to be done to “correct” the problem and move productivity closer to 100 percent instead of the measly 12.59% of the current population that is productive.

Read the full article at http://syzygyastro.hubpages.com/hub/Useless-Eaters

[timpage]

That's the solution to the financial problems caused by spending millions of dollars to keep terminally ill, comatose and vegetative patients alive?

The government shouldn't be involved in medical education? So, every public medical school should be shut down? The government shouldn't be involved in medical research? So, all the research that occurs at public medical schools should be halted? All the grants provided to researchers seeking cures should be stopped.

I don't know anything about your "useless eater" comments. Nobody is advocating the extermination of pensioners, prisoners or your granny. The entire premise is a strawman, is ridiculous and it detracts from the serious discussion that needs to occur in regard to the cost of healthcare in the US and the various ways to address that problem.

You'd do better to refrain from posting sometimes, rather than feeling like you just have to throw something up, no matter how silly it is.

Originally Posted by JD Barleycorn

timmy, if government didn't get involved in medicine (education, unions, research, etc) then they wouldn't get blamed and you would sleep better at night. That is the solution, government goes back to what it is supposed to be and about 1/4 the size that it is.

Sarah Palin was right, you were wrong. A man apologizes to a woman when he screws up. WTF, you're not much of a man are you?

Do five minutes of research on George Bernard Shaw and the Fabian Society. Where do you think the idea of concentration camps and mass euthanasia came from?

How about some words from the man himself: (see at 35 seconds in) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQvsf2MUKRQ It goes on to say that this is a socialist meme.

I do like the part at 2:33 that the left were against Hitler because he distorted Marxism (you see they thought Hitler was a Marxist though a bad one) beyond recogntion. That the death camps should have been occupied by the rich and not by nationality. Nice bunch you all represent.

As for the useless eater comment, it has been in wide spread usage for many years and is not credited to any one person but Shaw was one of the most influencial people using the term and concept....unless you count someone like Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Jung, etc.

[Old Dingus]

It's a shame old, pathetic WTF can't throw them "defective" babies in a fire, but he'd rather kill them clean and process their protein into soylent green which he could sell. ijs

Old Dingus

[Yssup Rider]

Old Dingus? I guess Somebody has a man-crush on you WTF!

Before you know it, someone will be asking to see your JUNK!

[LovingKayla]

I have two things to say.

1. Fuck you, you Godless mother fucing democrats that said, " oh no palin's death panels were fantasy. That will never happen. Who wants to kill gramma? not democrats." You are despicable and double tongued. I'm disgusted that any of you even live in this country. You are all liars and assholes (which doesn't really set you apart from republicans, but you guys are just flat ass awful.) Killing the old, sick, and unborn is your mantra and it rings out in our country like a sick animal that should be put down. Ya I said it. Fuck you.


2. My grandfather has been laying in a bed for two fucking years with zero quality of life. They have plenty of money to pay THEIR OWN WAY but in his case, it would be mercy to give him a nice comfortable shot of morphine.





2b. Gawd I hate liberals. just disgusting animals you are. You barely rate above a muslim, and muslims are barbaric animals that should be exterminated for the safety of the entire world. Ya I fucking said that too.

[LovingKayla]

Originally Posted by timpage

This isn't a government problem, the topic of the discussion is the government's attempts to solve the problem.

THE GOVERNMENT NEEDS TO GET THE FUCK OUT OF THE WAY.



Now for what you said in the rest of that post, I agree with the numbers mostly.... have you done the numbers on obamafuckingcare? our rates increase 200%. That's 200% for anyone that missed it. Look it up, I'm not your mommy.

[Old Dingus]

Originally Posted by Yssup Rider

Old Dingus? I guess Somebody has a man-crush on you WTF!

Before you know it, someone will be asking to see your JUNK!

"Nooooo. Mongo straight."

[WTF]

Originally Posted by Old Dingus

It's a shame old, pathetic WTF can't throw them "defective" babies in a fire, but he'd rather kill them clean and process their protein into soylent green which he could sell. ijs

Old Dingus

what is a shame is that we will never get to meet face to fist...

[Old Dingus]

Originally Posted by WTF

what is a shame is that we will never get to meet face to fist...

Oh we could.... Quite possibly much sooner than you think.

[Oops, almost wrote you pussy motherfucker.]

Old Dingus

[WTF]

Originally Posted by LovingKayla

I have two things to say.

1. Fuck you, you Godless mother fucing democrats that said, " oh no palin's death panels were fantasy. That will never happen. Who wants to kill gramma? not democrats." You are despicable and double tongued. I'm disgusted that any of you even live in this country. You are all liars and assholes (which doesn't really set you apart from republicans, but you guys are just flat ass awful.) Killing the old, sick, and unborn is your mantra and it rings out in our country like a sick animal that should be put down. Ya I said it. Fuck you.


2. My grandfather has been laying in a bed for two fucking years with zero quality of life. They have plenty of money to pay THEIR OWN WAY but in his case, it would be mercy to give him a nice comfortable shot of morphine.





2b. Gawd I hate liberals. just disgusting animals you are. You barely rate above a muslim, and muslims are barbaric animals that should be exterminated for the safety of the entire world. Ya I fucking said that too.

You make no sense, if granddaddy can afford it, give him morphine. WTF is wrong with you? People with your low intelligence should be spad and neutered.Read the god damn article before commenting next time. Here's hoping you get knocked up by a Muslim