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06-22-2012, 06:26 AM
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#16
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Lifetime Premium Access
Join Date: Jan 1, 2010
Location: houston
Posts: 48,267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JD Barleycorn
I expect the president to be angry that an American died because of his .
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Were you just as angry when the President did not fire antbody when the army lied about how Pat Tillman died?
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06-22-2012, 06:33 AM
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#17
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Lifetime Premium Access
Join Date: Jan 1, 2010
Location: houston
Posts: 48,267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy
You all know that the Fast and Furious program really pisses me off. I can guaran-damn-tee you that I would be just as outraged if John Ashcroft, Alberto Gonzalez, Edwin Meese, or any other AG you can name under any President had implemented this program and been as incompetent as Eric Holder in the administration thereof.
So I ask you, and be honest now, let's just pretend this was the Bush administration (since you all like to compare Obama to Bush) and John Ashcroft is AG, and the program progressed just like it did under Holder. Who would be defending the program, and who would be as upset as me?
I'm guessing that the libs would be all over Ashcroft and demanding his impeachment, and at least some of you Republicans would be defending Ashcroft.
So, what would your opinion be? My position is that right is right, and wrong is wrong, regardless of who is in charge. And this program was wrong, all wrong, from the beginning.
For extra credit, use the same criteria, and evaluate if your opinion of the NDAA would change.
What say you?
![Gunsmilie](https://cdn-w.eccie.net/images/smilies/modern/gunsmilie.gif)
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I was pissed with Clinton and Reno because of Waco, not as pissed as Tim McViegh but pissed.
My position is this selective outrage is pure politics.
My position on F&F is similiar to CJ7...though I believe that some heads should have rolled. But I believe that some heads should have rolled for the Pat Tillman cover-up and I believe damn sure some heads should have rolled after Waco , when the ATF was trying to secure funding and pulled this stunt that backfired to do so.
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06-22-2012, 07:24 AM
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#18
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Valued Poster
Join Date: Jun 12, 2011
Location: Olathe
Posts: 16,815
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You make a lot of misassumptions. As for Tillman, you could always call my Congressman and Senator from then. Maybe they've taken me off their "don't answer this call" list. I was on a first name basis with my Senator's intern staffers.
Don't assume that, unlike you, my standards are situational. Try to remember who it was who stopped George Bush's semi-amnesty program and it wasn't the pro-illegal democrats.
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06-22-2012, 07:47 AM
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#19
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Join Date: Jan 1, 2010
Location: houston
Posts: 48,267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JD Barleycorn
You make a lot of misassumptions. As for Tillman, you could always call my Congressman and Senator from then. Maybe they've taken me off their "don't answer this call" list. I was on a first name basis with my Senator's intern staffers.
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Good, no great!
Quote:
Originally Posted by JD Barleycorn
Don't assume that, unlike you, my standards are situational. Try to remember who it was who stopped George Bush's semi-amnesty program and it wasn't the pro-illegal democrats.
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Unlike me? WTF, I praise you , then this.
My standards are not situational.
I did not jump to any conclusion in say the Joe Paterno case or Zimmerman case. I have my own bias going in, just as you and everybody does. We all pick and choose what laws we approve of or not.
Personally I do not think the government should be running guns or starting wars with nations that had nothing to do with 9/11.
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06-22-2012, 08:11 AM
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#20
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Valued Poster
Join Date: Jan 18, 2010
Location: texas (close enough for now)
Posts: 9,249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ7
bud gave you an honest answer, well thought out too ...
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he didnt give an honest answer,, it was a half truth misleading answer that obama's press secretary gave for which he was called out on by even the white house press corp and he had to change his weasel words
fast and furious wasnt started under bush, a different program was that was handled totally differently.
carney tried to say it was started under bush and then got called on it and had to say the "tactic" was begun under bush. so they took the genesis of something and molded it into their own program for thier own ideological reasons and now they mislead in many ways, one of which is to try to blame bush.
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06-22-2012, 08:21 AM
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#21
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Valued Poster
Join Date: Dec 19, 2009
Location: Buffalo NY
Posts: 7,271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nevergaveitathought
he didnt give an honest answer,, it was a half truth misleading answer...
...carney tried to say it was started under bush and then got called on it and had to say the "tactic" was begun under bush. so they took the genesis of something and molded it into their own program
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I think Budman said as much.
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06-22-2012, 08:38 AM
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#22
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Valued Poster
Join Date: May 20, 2010
Location: Wichita
Posts: 28,730
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I was trying to give CBJ7 the benefit of the doubt. Considering his inability to comprehend even the simplest of concepts, I think he did the best he could.
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06-22-2012, 09:24 AM
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#23
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Valued Poster
Join Date: Aug 14, 2011
Location: San Antonio
Posts: 2,280
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I don't care who is in office. The truth should come out and the DOJ should have to answer to congressional review. You can make all the excuses you want for this but it was a complete disaster as an operation. There should be a review of how it was developed, who was the decision maker and who knew about the operation. And finally, are they still in a position to make these kind of decisions.
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06-22-2012, 10:50 AM
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#24
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Lifetime Premium Access
Join Date: Jan 1, 2010
Location: houston
Posts: 48,267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laz
I don't care who is in office. The truth should come out and the DOJ should have to answer to congressional review. You can make all the excuses you want for this but it was a complete disaster as an operation. There should be a review of how it was developed, who was the decision maker and who knew about the operation. And finally, are they still in a position to make these kind of decisions.
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do you feel that way about the military personnel who lied about pat tillmans death?
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06-22-2012, 10:57 AM
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#25
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Valued Poster
Join Date: Dec 19, 2009
Location: Buffalo NY
Posts: 7,271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laz
You can make all the excuses you want for this but it was a complete disaster as an operation.
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Why? Because one officer was killed?
Oh that's right! I keep forgetting who's President.
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06-22-2012, 10:57 AM
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#26
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Lifetime Premium Access
Join Date: Jan 1, 2010
Location: houston
Posts: 48,267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nevergaveitathought
thier own ideological reasons and now they mislead in many ways, one of which is to try to blame bush.
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This is about F&F not how Bush misled the public into thinking Saddam had something to do eith 9/11
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06-22-2012, 11:10 AM
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#27
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Valued Poster
Join Date: May 20, 2010
Location: Wichita
Posts: 28,730
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But WTF, you're trying to justify Holder's action by turning this into a discussion about Pat Tillman, which is not the subject of this thread. You're asking that just take the discussion off course.
And yes, those involved in Pat Tillman's death should be investigated fully, and appropriate sanctions should be applied. Just like this case. Now can we stay on topic? If you want to discuss Tillman, start another thread.
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06-22-2012, 11:12 AM
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#28
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Account Disabled
User ID: 2746
Join Date: Dec 17, 2009
Location: Houston
Posts: 7,168
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It’s not so much the Fast and the Furious program itself. It was a bad judgment call, but it’s not the first time an AG made a bad judgment call. It’s the cover up that is what is damning. Obama, allegedly the most “transparent” presidency in the history of the country – no world – covered up sad end to a poorly thought out program.
Watergate
Penn State
Iran/Contragate
No WMD’s
The Bay of Pigs
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06-22-2012, 11:19 AM
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#29
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Valued Poster
Join Date: May 20, 2010
Location: Wichita
Posts: 28,730
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Absolutely, Obama could have saved Holder and himself if he had investigated and shut it down as soon as this came out. Some lower level bureaucrats could have taken the blame (and deserved to take the blame), and this would be over.
Obama's arrogance will be his downfall.
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06-22-2012, 11:20 AM
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#30
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Account Disabled
Join Date: Apr 7, 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 5,249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OliviaHoward
It’s not so much the Fast and the Furious program itself. It was a bad judgment call, but it’s not the first time an AG made a bad judgment call. It’s the cover up that is what is damning. Obama, allegedly the most “transparent” presidency in the history of the country – no world – covered up sad end to a poorly thought out program.
Watergate
Penn State
Iran/Contragate
No WMD’s
The Bay of Pigs
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A cover-up of what?
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