Fair Game

[joe bloe]

Originally Posted by JD Barleycorn

I don't hear anyone criticizing Obama for all the dead and injuried in Afghanistan. He has already telegraphed that we are going to lose and yet we are still there. Everyone killed or injuried in Afghanistan is in vain and only something to stoke Obama's ego as a war president. It would also kill his chances for reelection as if they we're getting smaller all the time.

As for the Plame case. Since it was shown that Valerie Plame was not working covertly, no one was outed. Her own sleazy husband ran around Washington cocktail parties talking about his wife the CIA agent. This is where the press became aware of her. Bush made a mistake sending her husband, a democrat, to Niger to find out if Saddam was trying to buy "yellowcake". He lied to Bush, to his president, about what he found out. You could say he committed a form of treason by his lies but Bush had other sources that said Saddam was buying "yellowcake". The only purpose of "yellowcake" is enrichment for power or weapons. Saddam had a reactor in the 80s but Israel took care of that. He had no known reactor in 2000 so he must be developing weapons. Iraq had already used chemical weapons on his own people and Iranians. Note some of the stories today about "Syrian" chemical weapons. Every once in and awhile someone will slip up and mention those weapons may have come from Iraq.

Hollywood was always good at propaganda. Check out the movie sometime called "Mission to Moscow". It presented the USSR as very progressive, good, energetic, and a country that we should strive to be like. It was all shit.

I don't think it's accurate to say that Bush sent Joe Wilson to Niger. My guess is, that decision was made internally at the CIA. It's more likely that George Tenet signed off on it, because Joe Wilson's wife vouched for his contacts in Niger; as it turns out, he didn't have any. Bush's mistake, was in keeping George Tenet as CIA director, left over from the Clinton administration.

The reason Valerie Plame's name showed up in Bob Novak's column was in the context of speculating why on Earth Joe Wilson was chosen for the mission to Niger, since he had zero qualifications for the job. The assumption was made, that his wife, a CIA employee, must have recommended him.

[JD Barleycorn]

It is 2012 and we have had more casualties in Afghanistan than when Bush was in office. We are leaving and the country will collapse into chaos once again. This decision was made by the Obama adminstration. You can complain, bitch, and moan all you want but that is the fact. Your president is killing American soldiers for political gain. Do I really have to remind you about the outing of SEAL Team Six? No one had to know who pulled the trigger on OBL but the White House needed a victory dance. Then they were ambushed and their helicopter shot down. They were targeted because of the adolescent in the Oval Office.

[CJ7]

Bush's mistake was ignoring the intel Tenet gave him about Iraq.

[Sensia]

Holy crap you guys really get into it..

Sorry I finished watching it this morning. Very good and intense movie. I know that movies (even if based on fact) are not all fact and sometimes more fiction in some cases. But after reading the responses and looking up some information on this it seems there was a lot right on target in that movie, and I find it disgusting that those in the WH and those associated did this to one of our own in the CIA.

You hear in the news all this carrying on about Obama and sensitive intelligent leaks but sure seems like there was leaking (a lot of it) and damning information being given out in the Bush era as well. Maybe even more damning and dangerous than what people carry on about now with the Obama administration.

[CJ7]

Originally Posted by JD Barleycorn

It is 2012 and we have had more casualties in Afghanistan than when Bush was in office. We are leaving and the country will collapse into chaos once again. This decision was made by the Obama adminstration. You can complain, bitch, and moan all you want but that is the fact. Your president is killing American soldiers for political gain. Do I really have to remind you about the outing of SEAL Team Six? No one had to know who pulled the trigger on OBL but the White House needed a victory dance. Then they were ambushed and their helicopter shot down. They were targeted because of the adolescent in the Oval Office.

thats because Bush left Afghanistan and left his trash for the next guy

[joe bloe]

Originally Posted by CJ7

Bush's mistake was ignoring the intel Tenet gave him about Iraq.

Tenet's intel on Iraq was that the justification to invade was, "a slam dunk."

[WTF]

Our wing nuts:

Bush war good.

Obama war bad.

Memo to you wing nuts, nobody on the left tha is not elected thinks Obama's wars are good. The flip floppers are you guys

[CJ7]

Originally Posted by joe bloe

Tenet's intel on Iraq was that the justification to invade was, "a slam dunk."

Mr Drumheller, who had a senior role in the run-up to the war, told 60 Minutes that the CIA provided the White House with information from Iraq's then foreign minister, Naji Sabri, who had reportedly made a deal with the US.
"[The source] told us that there were no active weapons of mass destruction programmes," Mr Drumheller said. He said that the then-CIA director, George Tenet, passed the information on to George Bush, Dick Cheney, the vice-president, and other senior officials, who were initially excited. But that changed, he said. "The [White House] group that was dealing with preparation for the Iraq war came back and said they were no longer interested. And we said 'Well, what about the intel?' And they said 'Well, this isn't about intel anymore. This is about regime change.'"

[CJ7]

Originally Posted by Sensia

Holy crap you guys really get into it..

Sorry I finished watching it this morning. Very good and intense movie. I know that movies (even if based on fact) are not all fact and sometimes more fiction in some cases. But after reading the responses and looking up some information on this it seems there was a lot right on target in that movie, and I find it disgusting that those in the WH and those associated did this to one of our own in the CIA.

You hear in the news all this carrying on about Obama and sensitive intelligent leaks but sure seems like there was leaking (a lot of it) and damning information being given out in the Bush era as well. Maybe even more damning and dangerous than what people carry on about now with the Obama administration.

thats what happens when a beautiful woman enters a room full of heathens ...

I agree with your opinion of the "movie" .. theres considerably more info (not in movie form) available from Frontline if youre interested ..

[Old-T]

Originally Posted by CJ7

And we said 'Well, what about the intel?' And they said 'Well, this isn't about intel anymore. This is about regime change.'"

Truth.

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by CJ7

Mr Drumheller, who had a senior role in the run-up to the war, told 60 Minutes that the CIA provided the White House with information from Iraq's then foreign minister, Naji Sabri, who had reportedly made a deal with the US.
"[The source] told us that there were no active weapons of mass destruction programmes," Mr Drumheller said. He said that the then-CIA director, George Tenet, passed the information on to George Bush, Dick Cheney, the vice-president, and other senior officials, who were initially excited. But that changed, he said. "The [White House] group that was dealing with preparation for the Iraq war came back and said they were no longer interested. And we said 'Well, what about the intel?' And they said 'Well, this isn't about intel anymore. This is about regime change.'"

Meanwhile, interpretative intelligence analysis, "Curve Ball", Ahmed Chalabi and sources close to Saddam (his generals) believed and reported that Saddam did have WMD. "Truth"!!!

[CJ7]

TRUTH

An alcoholic cousin of an aide to Ahmed Chalabi has emerged as the key source in the US rationale for going to war in Iraq.

According to a US presidential commission looking into pre-war intelligence failures, the basis for pivotal intelligence on Iraq's alleged biological weapons programmes and fleet of mobile labs was a spy described as 'crazy' by his intelligence handlers and a 'congenital liar' by his friends.
The defector, given the code-name Curveball by the CIA, has emerged as the central figure in the corruption of US intelligence estimates on Iraq. Despite considerable doubts over Curveball's credibility, his claims were included in the administration's case for war without caveat.
According to the report, the failure of US spy agencies to scrutinise his claims are the 'primary reason' that they 'fundamentally misjudged the status of Iraq's [biological weapons] programs'. The catalogue of failures and the gullibility of US intelligence make for darkly comic reading, even by the standards of failure detailed in previous investigations. Of all the disproven pre-war weapons claims, from aluminium centrifuge tubes to yellow cake uranium from Niger, none points to greater levels of incompetence than those found within the misadventures of Curveball.
The Americans never had direct access to Curveball - he was controlled by the German intelligence services who passed his reports on to the Defence Intelligence Agency, the Pentagon's spy agency.
Between January 2000 and September 2001, Curveball offered 100 reports, among them the claims of mobile biological weapons labs that were central in the US evidence of an illicit weapons programme, but subsequently turned out to be trucks equipped with machinery to make helium for weather balloons. The commission concluded that Curveball's information was worse than none at all. 'Worse than having no human sources,' it said, 'is being seduced by a human source who is telling lies.'

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by CJ7

TRUTH

An alcoholic cousin of an aide to Ahmed Chalabi has emerged as the key source in the US rationale for going to war in Iraq.

According to a US presidential commission looking into pre-war intelligence failures, the basis for pivotal intelligence on Iraq's alleged biological weapons programmes and fleet of mobile labs was a spy described as 'crazy' by his intelligence handlers and a 'congenital liar' by his friends.
The defector, given the code-name Curveball by the CIA, has emerged as the central figure in the corruption of US intelligence estimates on Iraq. Despite considerable doubts over Curveball's credibility, his claims were included in the administration's case for war without caveat.
According to the report, the failure of US spy agencies to scrutinise his claims are the 'primary reason' that they 'fundamentally misjudged the status of Iraq's [biological weapons] programs'. The catalogue of failures and the gullibility of US intelligence make for darkly comic reading, even by the standards of failure detailed in previous investigations. Of all the disproven pre-war weapons claims, from aluminium centrifuge tubes to yellow cake uranium from Niger, none points to greater levels of incompetence than those found within the misadventures of Curveball.
The Americans never had direct access to Curveball - he was controlled by the German intelligence services who passed his reports on to the Defence Intelligence Agency, the Pentagon's spy agency.
Between January 2000 and September 2001, Curveball offered 100 reports, among them the claims of mobile biological weapons labs that were central in the US evidence of an illicit weapons programme, but subsequently turned out to be trucks equipped with machinery to make helium for weather balloons. The commission concluded that Curveball's information was worse than none at all. 'Worse than having no human sources,' it said, 'is being seduced by a human source who is telling lies.'

The "truth" is, your analysis and opinion are based on "hindsight" and not on the operational intel that was available to decision makers in 2001-03. As such, your 20/20 hindsight and opinion have been and will remain unmitigated bullshit! The WMD Commission and the Butler report both indicate that the intelligence community was correct in suggesting that Saddam was probably seeking to re-arm his military forces with WMD.

[CJ7]

Originally Posted by WTF

Our wing nuts:

Bush war good.

Obama war bad.

Memo to you wing nuts, nobody on the left tha is not elected thinks Obama's wars are good. The flip floppers are you guys

evidence presented ... take IB for instance.

no seriously, YOU take IB ..

[CJ7]

Nov. 1999Chalabi-connected Iraqi defector "Curveball"—a convicted sex offender and low-level engineer who became the sole source for much of the case that Saddam had WMD, particularly mobile weapons labs—enters Munich seeking a German visa. German intel officers describe his information as highly suspect. US agents never debrief Curveball or perform background check. Nonetheless, Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) and CIA will pass raw intel on to senior policymakers.


hindsight my Texas ass ....