Stephanè Hessel on Occupy Wallstreet "Find the time for outrage"

[joe bloe]

Originally Posted by WTF

What is Germany? Are they socialist? Do they have universial healthcare? Are they a failed state?

Germany is the strongest economy in the EU. The rest of the EU is in bad shape and is depending on Germany to prop them up. They're also trying to get the IMF to support them, which means hundreds of billions of American money.

Don't you read the newspapers? Are you living in a fantasy world? The EU is struggling to ward off a collapse of their currency. The only way they can possibly improve their situation is to start reducing the size of the welfare state.

Anyone who defends socialism at this point is delusional.

[nevergaveitathought]

the issue as i see it with OWS isnt that they can't complain or can't have their "outrage". it's that they wish a change in values from American values to some polyglot of not very well thought out desires that have been shown by history to be destructive.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by joe bloe

Germany is the strongest economy in the EU.
.

In one breath you giveth

Originally Posted by joe bloe

Anyone who defends socialism at this point is delusional.

and in the next you taketh away.


Make up you mind, or is it already blown?

Originally Posted by joe bloe

The EU is struggling to ward off a collapse of their currency. The only way they can possibly improve their situation is to start reducing the size of the welfare state.

.

You do realize that the same could be said about the Unted States? Though we are more like a Banana Republic combo welfare state. They just do not spend as much as we do on their military. Probably why Germany has done so much better than us over the last thirty years.

Originally Posted by ZyklonZomB

"but there are many, many more characterizes that make it a failing system of government."

Oh do tell...please enlighten us.

Please no hard question for the masses.

Popular Tea Party slogans are so much more in nowdays!

[WTF]

Originally Posted by nevergaveitathought

the issue as i see it with OWS isnt that they can't complain or can't have their "outrage". it's that they wish a change in values from American values to some polyglot of not very well thought out desires that have been shown by history to be destructive.

They want exactly what you wanted as a student, affordable education.

They do not want to pay huge chunks to SS so you can retire in ease while they struggle to pay off student loans.

If you had an ounce of sense , you'd know just exactly wtf the movement was about.

It is a struggle between young welfare and old welfare.

[nevergaveitathought]

some people have no idea what i want or wanted or did.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by nevergaveitathought

some people have no idea what i want or wanted or did.

Just like you have no idea what they want...

The baby boomers wanted cheap education and got it. They now want their kids to pay for their medical care in retirement , no matter the costs. They cry death panels if people bring up caps.

So you may not know what this struggle is about but I sure do.

[nevergaveitathought]

quit quoting me and then proceed to blather nonsense

[WTF]

Originally Posted by nevergaveitathought

quit quoting me and then proceed to blather nonsense

Go fuc yourself.

You enter a thread, be prepared to defend your position.

Their values are no better or worse than your values.

[Whirlaway]

WTF is all over the place; no coherent thought in his blattherings..........he rants against paying for education on one hand then rants against people who want to cut funding for education....same with healthcare and every other issue WTF posts on.

Even though he claims to know what the "struggle is about"; in reality he is a clueless dunce.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by Whirlaway

WTF is all over the place; no coherent thought in his blattherings..........he rants against paying for education on one hand then rants against people who want to cut funding for education....same with healthcare and every other issue WTF posts on.

.

I like to rant against idiots who cry about spending on things they do not care for on one hand and then bless spending on things they approve of on the other. In your case you are a spendthrift on your own country men and a liberal spending fool on folks in other countries. Typical nation building fool.

Idiots like that are exactly wtf is wrong with this country.

We are all both conservative and liberals....just on different matters.

The sooner you learn that simple concept, the sooner you will be able to have an adult conversation.

Originally Posted by Whirlaway

Even though he claims to know what the "struggle is about"; in reality he is a clueless dunce.

I know exactly wtf it is about. Your jealousy is showing. Maybe is you would read/ listen to more than Sean Hannity or Rush , you too would have a broader base of knowledge from which to work from.

[Guest050715-1]

Originally Posted by Fast Gunn

Well, that is an interesting idea, but they would need a leader before they could formulate one and they don't even have that.

The whole Occupy Wall Street movement really bothers me, because these people have genuine grievances, but all that rage needs a focus to be effective.

I think the time is ripe for Americans to stand up and say, “Enough is enough!”, but that’s not what is being said. What’s being said is we are angry! Maybe that’s enough for someone, somewhere to formulate a thesis for change. Thomas Jefferson did.

Originally Posted by ZyklonZomB

"but there are many, many more characterizes that make it a failing system of government."

Oh do tell...please enlighten us.

Do you want a dissertation on what I think or are you going to just go ahead and tell me what I should think? That might be easier.

Originally Posted by WTF

Actually they were sick of war and death throughout the centuries, Germany (or better stated WWII) just happened to be the straw that broke the camel's proverbial back.

Pretty much that’s what I said; I just skipped the history behind the ideology behind the creation of the “final” European treaty because I figured we all knew it. As I understand the history, after WWII controlling runaway nationalism was a key objective of many European nations. There were a few iterations of European treaties before the EU treaty was signed around ‘92/’93. Germany caused or started two world wars and God knows how many intra-continental wars. Another driving reason was competing with the United States or any other emerging superpower(s).

Originally Posted by WTF

And Crony Capitalism is bringing down this society. The problem is people are to stupid to see it. They blame everything on Socialism.

Originally Posted by WTF

Yes, that is why there really is no such thing as a purely capitalist society or socialist society. There are degree of both. To spout off some such nonsense about Socialism not working is ignorant of the actual facts. An ideal society would find the middle ground , Germany seems to have struck a balance.

Why isn’t Germany a failing, socialist country right now? One, because at the beginning of the current financial crisis, they tightened their belts, individuals and organizations gored their own sacred cows and they laid-in for the long haul. Maybe that is what makes them a mature nation when we and the gime-gime socialist nations of quais-Western Europe aren’t willing to sacrifice anything but the other guy’s well-being and / or sacred cows. And two, because they made the sacrifices, they have healthy industry that allows them to be an exporting machine. And all things are cyclical; eventually, somehow, Germany will have a recession again. You can’t have a perfect balance when it’s a global economy or when your people are inherently nationalistic and ride the tide hard like they and all the other nations that are just as certain as the Germans, Americans, British, Chineese, Japaneese, etc are that they are the masters of their own destiny and the world.

I am just as much against, if not more so against, runaway Laize Faire capitalism as I am against cradle to grave socialism. I spouted off no nonsense. You just read it as such. What I said is that universal healthcare is good, but there are many other things in a socialist system that I personally find bad because they are not viable financially and shift the burden completely off some sectors. I can see where borrowing money and burdening young people and their families so anyone over the age of 55 in Greece can retire repulsive and not a financially viable. I also, personally, don’t want to pay taxes upwards of 65% to pay for extensive social safety nets.

We have the worst of both worlds here in the US. A perfect example of socialism and capitalism colliding to produce deviating results is when the US Congress raids our safety net called Social Security to meet their budgets with nothing but an IOU so they can spend uncontrollably for more social programs to appease the unwashed masses for their votes and pork for their filthy, bribe paying industrial handlers, it’s repulsive and Un-Goddamn-American. We can’t get it right and neither have the extreme socialist/communists. You are right, there’s a line out there; it’s somewhere between the greedy get everything and we get the crumbs and the government gets everything and we get the crumbs.

Originally Posted by WTF

See how they cried about Obama care. That is an example of crony cap, not universal health care. Both systems are about power and the fight to control it.

Obamacare IS CRONY CAPITALIST CRAP! If he had stuck to his guns and done a singe payer or a national carrier, we wouldn’t have the cross-over, inbred abortion between socialist care and capitalist fuck you that we have now. It’s a bad bill; I hope the Supreme Court strikes it down so we can start over with something that the people want and that will work without lining the pockets of the pharma and insurance industries at the cost and on the backs of working Americans.

I’m agreeing with you! I am not a Laize Faire capitalist, but I’m not a socialist either. It’s in the middle somewhere and we nor the EU have found it. Maybe we never will because money is the mother of all rationing systems, people want to own stuff and power is the ultimate aphrodisiac.

[CynicalSapien]

Originally Posted by OliviaHoward

Do you want a dissertation on what I think or are you going to just go ahead and tell me what I should think? That might be easier.

I'm genuinely interested in why you believe Socialism to be a failed system. Telling you what you should think? Not my style.

Have you written a dissertation? Most dissertations are more focused on what can be empirically tested and not so much on thoughts/ideologies.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by OliviaHoward

. Universal healthcare does not socialism make it is just one of the good things about socialism, but there are many, many more characterizes that make it a failing system of government. Further, socialism is only one of the key elements that is bring the EZ down. Tthere are other basic facts, like you can’t have a common currency if you don’t have a common government, and dramatically different social concerns and resources is another factor.

.

Originally Posted by OliviaHoward

Why isn’t Germany a failing, socialist country right now? .

.

Either it is a failure or not.

All countries fail.

It is the nature of the beast.

Originally Posted by OliviaHoward

I am just as much against, if not more so against, runaway Laize Faire capitalism as I am against cradle to grave socialism. I spouted off no nonsense. You just read it as such.
.

Well then you just should have agreed with me in the first place . Jow Blow was spouting off a bunch of idiotic talking point from the Rush/Sean Hannity line of shit talking.

Anybody with an ounce of sense knows that all governments are a combo of many different so called forms of government.

He was the one spouting off, if you agree with him then I was talking to you too, if not disregard.

[Guest050715-1]

Originally Posted by WTF

You do realize that the same could be said about the Unted States? Though we are more like a Banana Republic combo welfare state. They just do not spend as much as we do on their military. Probably why Germany has done so much better than us over the last thirty years.

Because they don’t have to. They have NATO and a strong American presence all through out Europe – specifically in Germany!

Originally Posted by WTF

They want exactly what you wanted as a student, affordable education.

They do not want to pay huge chunks to SS so you can retire in ease while they struggle to pay off student loans.

If you had an ounce of sense , you'd know just exactly wtf the movement was about.

It is a struggle between young welfare and old welfare.

That’s one group’s complaint. I’ve read so many accounts of people protesting out of anger. Some because they can’t find a job. Some because they want a communist State. Some because they are raging against the Wall Street Robber Barons. And some because they are young, angry and have fuck all else to do. They have no leader and no cohesive thesis of their complaints. However, I think the movement is getting through to the "establishment" despite themselves.

Originally Posted by WTF

Just like you have no idea what they want...

The baby boomers wanted cheap education and got it. They now want their kids to pay for their medical care in retirement , no matter the costs. They cry death panels if people bring up caps.

So you may not know what this struggle is about but I sure do.

The baby boomer generation is hands down the SINGLE WORST THING TO EVER HAPPEN TO THE FACE OF THE PLANET – No offense to Baby Boomers present; of course, it’s a generalization and doesn’t apply to every single baby boomer in the Land. But as a group, they are selfish hypocrites that protested the War in the name of fuck the man – and mostly because there was a universal draft and they didn’t want to go to war, and then proceeded become the same hated man and systematically destroy the fabric of our country with their unabated greed. They ignored their children and they now wonder why they are college educated and living at home at 32. The Baby Boomers are like locust. But soon, we’ll be left with their kids!

Originally Posted by ZyklonZomB

I'm genuinely interested in why you believe Socialism to be a failed system. Telling you what you should think? Not my style.

Have you written a dissertation? Most dissertations are more focused on what can be empirically tested and not so much on thoughts/ideologies.

Oh really? I would have thought from your condescending post and your avatar that you are used to telling women what to think and do. Am I wrong? In any event, here are a few of my thoughts.

What makes socialism a failing system? Money. As long as you have enough money and enough people that either can pay, are willing to pay or an earning population in sufficient quantities to pay into the system, it works. If you don't, it will fail.

Willing to Pay - Germany is unwilling to pay for other countries bad fiscal policies and for societies that do not value hard work. It's not the German's fault that the Greeks have virtually no heavy industry, that want to bask in the Grecian sun at the age of 55 after a career chasing tourist dollars and not slaving away deep in some factory creating things of value to sell. There are other examples of those unwilling to pay, but this a readily accessible example.

Can't Pay: some countries just are too poor to sustain a socialist system. Oil Curse countries like Venezuela have the money, but they distribute the money through citizenry directly without passing it through multiple layers of wealth creating industry so that the can money to grow. They don't have wealth creating industry for several reasons, but mainly because it is a dictatorship that either doesn't want his people/ country to be wealthy or he doesn't understand how advanced economies work. Instead, the money is given directly to the people in need with just one turn on the money after the initial earnings and therefore there is not enough money to go around even if originally there was enough wealth creating industry at the beginning of the food chain.

Too Small a Population: in many countries, Italy for example, the population growth isn't substantial enough to support the aging population without immigration because of the declining birth rates. You have to have workers to tax or you have no money in the system.

These are just thoughts off the top of my head; I'm sure there are others and many more examples of the examples I've given. Socialism only works when there is other peoples’ money to spend. In the absence of it, the house of cards comes down.

[Munchmasterman]

Originally Posted by Fast Gunn

You guys are killing me!

. . . Is assholiness even a word?

I believe the correct word is "assholishness" but since that word is made up too, assholiness (which personally I believed to refer to a TV Evangelicalist) is probably OK.