communism is a great concept

[dilbert firestorm]

if communist russia lasted 75yrs; 1917 - 1992.

then communist china is not that far behind; 1945 - 2020?

this is rather telling. stuff like that wouldn't get reported years ago.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/worl...-uprising.html

[JD Barleycorn]

You have to read what Marx wrote in Das Kapital. His theory was that, get this, people would NATURALLY graduate towards communism. See that is the weak point. According to Marx we would become more egalitarian over time until we wanted to share in everything for the benefit of everyone. At no time in history has this happened naturally, it has always been forced and therefore doesn't work. Then again, it means that Marx is still just a theory which is why some nincompoops still want to try again. It has never worked and I don't see it working any time in the near future. Not without the gun to promote compassion and caring.
It is also a concept embraced by people with a juvenile understanding of humanity and politics.

[dilbert firestorm]

Originally Posted by JD Barleycorn

You have to read what Marx wrote in Das Kapital. His theory was that, get this, people would NATURALLY graduate towards communism. See that is the weak point. According to Marx we would become more egalitarian over time until we wanted to share in everything for the benefit of everyone. At no time in history has this happened naturally, it has always been forced and therefore doesn't work. Then again, it means that Marx is still just a theory which is why some nincompoops still want to try again. It has never worked and I don't see it working any time in the near future. Not without the gun to promote compassion and caring.
It is also a concept embraced by people with a juvenile understanding of humanity and politics.

I think marx's communism is basically re-inventing the wheel.

tribes are a form of communism aren't they? admittedly, it is very simple culture. you had the hunters and the gathers. they all shared in food hunted or plants gathered.

[Fast Gunn]

The use of the gun to promote compassion and caring?

Wow, now that is a totally radical concept!

Was it Mao who said that power comes from the barrel of a gun?

That seems a more likely consequence than compassion given the current state of human nature.

. . . Man has evolved and moved out of caves, but in general, (although with some notable exceptions), is still a primitive creature!

Originally Posted by JD Barleycorn

that Marx is still just a theory which is why some nincompoops still want to try again. It has never worked and I don't see it working any time in the near future. Not without the gun to promote compassion and caring.
It is also a concept embraced by people with a juvenile understanding of humanity and politics.

[JD Barleycorn]

If you go back to the early Greeks and the polis (city-states) Plato wrote about a society where everyone had a job and that was his job forever. A leatherworker was always a leatherworker, a miller was always a miller, and so on. Children were to be raised by the state for the service of the state. Leaders were to be determined early on and trained to be leaders. The greatest would be philosopher kings. The problem is that no one had any real choice in life. There was no upward mobility. Only the job you would have for the rest of your life even if you were not good at that job. Overall quality would suffer because how do you motivate someone who hates their job and has no other choice. Plate for all of his intelligence was wrong about human nature unless it was his idea of an ideal society (which doesn't exist). So Marx is about 2500 years late.

[dilbert firestorm]

Originally Posted by JD Barleycorn

If you go back to the early Greeks and the polis (city-states) Plato wrote about a society where everyone had a job and that was his job forever. A leatherworker was always a leatherworker, a miller was always a miller, and so on. Children were to be raised by the state for the service of the state. Leaders were to be determined early on and trained to be leaders. The greatest would be philosopher kings. The problem is that no one had any real choice in life. There was no upward mobility. Only the job you would have for the rest of your life even if you were not good at that job. Overall quality would suffer because how do you motivate someone who hates their job and has no other choice. Plate for all of his intelligence was wrong about human nature unless it was his idea of an ideal society (which doesn't exist). So Marx is about 2500 years late.

what you're/plato describing is a caste system like the one in India which is still practiced even though its illegal.

[JD Barleycorn]

Yes, that is a fair description but you have to understand that Plato described this as being all voluntary which is the problem. Can you imagine soomeone who is a crappy boot maker, but is a great tailor, wanting to continue to be a boot maker?

Marx makes the same mistake. Everything is stratified and everyone must be happy with their lot in life. Of course under communism they do have a cure for your depression.

[joe bloe]

Originally Posted by dilbert firestorm

I think marx's communism is basically re-inventing the wheel.

tribes are a form of communism aren't they? admittedly, it is very simple culture. you had the hunters and the gathers. they all shared in food hunted or plants gathered.

The basic idea of communism is "from each according to ability and to each according to need".

This concept works at the level of the family. The parents have the ability to produce and the children have no ability to produce. Consumption is based on need. Contribution is based on ability.

At the level of a small village or a clan you have a system that is essentially an extended family. Everyone knows each other and has a sense of community based on shared experience that creates a bond. In this kind of environment the willingness to share and sacrifice for the common good is greatly increased.

Communism/socialism fails to work when it is applied in the real world environment of cities, states and countries where the sense of community is reduced. Communism can not work on a large scale because it is not consistant with human nature.

[nevergaveitathought]

Originally Posted by joe bloe

The basic idea of communism is "from each according to ability and to each according to need".


At the level of a small village or a clan you have a system that is essentially an extended family. Everyone knows each other and has a sense of community based on shared experience that creates a bond. In this kind of environment the willingness to share and sacrifice for the common good is greatly increased.

recall if you will the Plymouth Colony and the pilgrims, and what caused the plenty from which the first thanksgiving was had, a turn from communal socialism, to what actually produces bounty...

Writes Bradford the governor:

The experience that was had in this common course, and condition, tried sundry years, and that amongst godly, and sober men, may well evince, the vanity of that conceit, of Plato’s, and other ancients, applauded by some of later times: that the taking away of property, and bringing in community, into, a commonwealth; would make them happy, and flourishing; as if they were wiser than God. For this community, (so far as it was) was found to breed much confusion, and discontent, and retard much employment, that would have been to their benefit, and comfort...[21]

What were they to do? Bradford relates that they left the communal arrangement and divided up the land by families. He states:

At length after much debate of things, the Governor, (with the advice of the chiefest amongst them) gave was that they should set corn every man for his own particular, and in that regard trust to themselves; as in all other things to go on in the general way as before. And so assigned to every family a parcel of land, according to the proportion of their number... This had very good success; for it made all hands very industrious, so as much more corn was planted, than otherwise would have been.[22]

So much for obamaism

[Jackie S]

The reason nobody wants Switzerland is because there is nothing in Switzerland that anybody wants.

[cptjohnstone]

Originally Posted by Jackie S

The reason nobody wants Switzerland is because there is nothing in Switzerland that anybody wants.

I will take it

[Guest102513-1]

Interesting thread....was it Marx's quote that went something like...give me the child for it's first 5 years, and I have a communist for life???? Just wondering???

And whoever said Communist China regins ends 2020....not sure about that. They have seen what happens elsewhere and blended in some good old fashion capitalism into the system, and seem to be doing nicely.

And b4 I get hit....I'm not saying China has got it going. What a pituful place to live in, of course. But I think to say, somehow, that it will no longer by a communist state by 2020 is pushing it

[dilbert firestorm]

Originally Posted by vkmaster

Interesting thread....was it Marx's quote that went something like...give me the child for it's first 5 years, and I have a communist for life???? Just wondering???

And whoever said Communist China regins ends 2020....not sure about that. They have seen what happens elsewhere and blended in some good old fashion capitalism into the system, and seem to be doing nicely.

And b4 I get hit....I'm not saying China has got it going. What a pituful place to live in, of course. But I think to say, somehow, that it will no longer by a communist state by 2020 is pushing it

It was a projection based on the length of communist russian rule. its theoretical.

the communist party in china is far from being secure, . when they will go by way of communist russia is an open question.