November 22, 1963

[LexusLover]

Originally Posted by CaptainMidnight

Although I landed a bit short of buying into any of the popular conspiracy theories, I did have a few doubts at one time. However, a number of articles I've read over the years have led me to be extremely skeptical of the view that Oswald did not act alone..

#1: One should distinguish in the Kennedy shooting between a "conspiracy to kill JFK" and whether or not a loan shooter implemented the focus of the conspiracy.

#2: Based on Federal standards it does not take much to "participate" in a conspiracy ... the "conspirator" does not have to commit a crime in furtherance of the conspiracy, it only requires knowing that the "plot" is to do the criminal act.

#3: The FBI (and other Federal LE agencies) has a bad habit of dismissing locals (unless it is advantageous to the FBI to do otherwise) and history is fairly recent with episodes in which that "back fired," plus at the moment JFK was pronounced dead it was critical that a "calm" atmosphere be generated quickly, which is a good motivation for the Feds, under Johnson's direction, to quash any "wild" imaginations.

#4: As far as I was concerned the way Oswald was killed and the person who killed him was sufficient enough to suggest other involvements beyond Oswald, who was simply a "mechanic" tasked with a "fix" .... or as some would say ... a "solution." There were no "friends" of the Kennedy's "behind" Ruby.... and Ruby was the ideal guy to "clean up the mess," since his days were numbered and he was a courthouse rat with access as a known face.

#5. As for the Dallas PD ... with the Dallas County SO ... all involved with parading him out unprotected to a death sentence should have been summarily fired for not protecting their prisoner, and even walking him to his death.

[acp5762]

Originally Posted by LexusLover

#1: One should distinguish in the Kennedy shooting between a "conspiracy to kill JFK" and whether or not a loan shooter implemented the focus of the conspiracy.

#2: Based on Federal standards it does not take much to "participate" in a conspiracy ... the "conspirator" does not have to commit a crime in furtherance of the conspiracy, it only requires knowing that the "plot" is to do the criminal act.

#3: The FBI (and other Federal LE agencies) has a bad habit of dismissing locals (unless it is advantageous to the FBI to do otherwise) and history is fairly recent with episodes in which that "back fired," plus at the moment JFK was pronounced dead it was critical that a "calm" atmosphere be generated quickly, which is a good motivation for the Feds, under Johnson's direction, to quash any "wild" imaginations.

#4: As far as I was concerned the way Oswald was killed and the person who killed him was sufficient enough to suggest other involvements beyond Oswald, who was simply a "mechanic" tasked with a "fix" .... or as some would say ... a "solution." There were no "friends" of the Kennedy's "behind" Ruby.... and Ruby was the ideal guy to "clean up the mess," since his days were numbered and he was a courthouse rat with access as a known face.

#5. As for the Dallas PD ... with the Dallas County SO ... all involved with parading him out unprotected to a death sentence should have been summarily fired for not protecting their prisoner, and even walking him to his death.

The five points you bring up have always surrounded the Kennedy assassination, and they have always been part of any debate on the assassination, especially Oswald's death and Ruby's connection to Oswald. When people think of the assassination as a conspiracy they are really talking about the Governments involvement and Oswald as a fall guy. Being that there is so much information out there seemingly proving and disproving conspiracy as well as a loan gunman, the magical pristine bullet ect. I've often had doubts on both counts.I've always been unclear as to the real reason why Kennedy was killed, who benefited and who had or could have had the power to cover it up.

[Guest040616]

Originally Posted by TheDaliLama

But even after 50 years............it still hurts.

I couldn't agree more!

[gnadfly]

I didn't have an opinion on the conspiracy theory until that night Geraldo Rivera ran the Zapruder film. Gawd, what year was that 1975? Seeing Kennedy's head snap back made the grassy knoll shooter theory very plausible.

By the time Stone's "JFK" came out I was back in the single shooter camp. After "JFK" I was firmly in the single shooter camp.

Still very suspicious how Oswald went to the USSR and all his confirmed behavior that most Americans wouldn't dream of doing in the 1950-60s.

May JFK rest in peace but the whole 50th Anniversary Remembrance to someone who was born and raised in Dallas is something I'd rather forget.

[Submodo]

I always thought it was too hard also, until my first trip to Dallas where I toured the plaza. It looked so much bigger in the Zapuder film and on TV - but when you are there, it doesn't seem that difficult.

Originally Posted by timpage

Posner's book is excellent. Vincent Bugliosi's book is also very good.

It was such an unbelievable event that nobody can accept the idea that a nobody like Oswald was able to pull it off. The shot wasn't that difficult. As I recall, the headshot was made from 166 feet? A bit more than 50 yards? With a telescopic sight? And Oswald shot Expert in the Corps. That's a gimme.

[JohnnyCap]

I always thought it was Frankie Valli:

Oh what a shot,
Late November 1963
Blew the head off of Kennedy,
What a rifle, what a shot.

[acp5762]

Originally Posted by JohnnyCap

I always thought it was Frankie Valli:

Oh what a shot,
Late November 1963
Blew the head off of Kennedy,
What a rifle, what a shot.

What a Nut.

[Guest040616]

Originally Posted by JohnnyCap

I always thought it was Frankie Valli:

Oh what a shot,
Late November 1963
Blew the head off of Kennedy,
What a rifle, what a shot.

You are one sick puppy!

[Jackie S]

Here is what happened

Three people wanted Kennedy dead. The first was Fidel Castro, because Kennedy had tried to have him killed. Sort of a tit for tat.
Sam Giancanno, Mafia Boss, because Kennedy had fucked his girlfriend Judith Exner, and because The Kennedys double crossed The Mob by sicking Bobby Kennedy on them after the Mob had delivered the necessary votes in Chicago to secure the win for Jack. In short, The Kennedys double crossed the,

Joe DiMaggio hated Kennedy for what he did to Marilyn Monroe. Since the Mob idolized Jolten Joe, this was even a more compelling reason to have The Kennedys punished.

So, The Mob got with Castro through their old Havana Connections, who through his Russian Connections found a shooter, and they were the ones who financed the entire operation and also were able to place Oswald in that prime location for the fatal shot.

In short, it wasn't about politics, it was personal. Kennedy fucked over the Mob after the election, fucked Sam Giancanna's girlfriend, and laid down the supreme insult to a man they idolized, Jow DiMaggio, and of course, tried to have Castro killed.

President or not, you can't fuck over that many people who have the will, and the means, to kill you.

Now, my tongue is planted firmly in my cheek as I write this, but think about it. Men have been killed for less.

[BJerk]

Originally Posted by timpage

Posner's book is excellent. Vincent Bugliosi's book is also very good.

It was such an unbelievable event that nobody can accept the idea that a nobody like Oswald was able to pull it off. The shot wasn't that difficult. As I recall, the headshot was made from 166 feet? A bit more than 50 yards? With a telescopic sight? And Oswald shot Expert in the Corps. That's a gimme.

I agree with you. Every time I have stood in the Sixth Floor, right beside the window where Oswald did it, I can't understand how anyone who has ever shot a rifle could say it was an unmakeable shot.
The Mannlicher-Carcano 6.5 MM rifle in the hands of any trained rifleman is quite capable. Oswald was also proven to be at a range practicing just before the Kennedy assasination, and he also shot at General Walker in his Turtle Creek home, missing by a hair due to glass deflecting the shot.

Oswald’s Marine Rifle Marksmanship Scores

In the late 1950s, US Marines were categorized at three levels of shooting ability, according to the scores they achieved at a standardized test of their accuracy:

1. Expert: a score of 220 to 250.
2. Sharpshooter: 210 to 219.
3. Marksman: 190 to 209.

According to his Marine score card (Commission Exhibit 239), Oswald was tested twice:

1. In December 1956, after “a very intensive 3 weeks’ training period” (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.11, p.302), Oswald scored 212: two marks above the minimum for a ‘sharpshooter’.
2. In May 1959, he scored 191: one mark above the minimum for a ‘marksman’.

[acp5762]

Originally Posted by Bert Jones

I agree with you. Every time I have stood in the Sixth Floor, right beside the window where Oswald did it, I can't understand how anyone who has ever shot a rifle could say it was an unmakeable shot.
The Mannlicher-Carcano 6.5 MM rifle in the hands of any trained rifleman is quite capable. Oswald was also proven to be at a range practicing just before the Kennedy assasination, and he also shot at General Walker in his Turtle Creek home, missing by a hair due to glass deflecting the shot.

Oswald’s Marine Rifle Marksmanship Scores

In the late 1950s, US Marines were categorized at three levels of shooting ability, according to the scores they achieved at a standardized test of their accuracy:

1. Expert: a score of 220 to 250.
2. Sharpshooter: 210 to 219.
3. Marksman: 190 to 209.

According to his Marine score card (Commission Exhibit 239), Oswald was tested twice:

1. In December 1956, after “a very intensive 3 weeks’ training period” (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.11, p.302), Oswald scored 212: two marks above the minimum for a ‘sharpshooter’.
2. In May 1959, he scored 191: one mark above the minimum for a ‘marksman’.

Well Oswald's average clearly places him as a Marksman with the M -1 Carbine which is a gas operated semi auto rifle. I 've never really doubted that those shots could be made, but I have to wonder could they have been made by a rifle like the Manlicher Carcano which is a bolt action rifle and fired by a shooter that is under pressure with mediocre skills in quick succession. It takes skill to shoot with a rifle, especially with precision. This was no plink session.

[cptjohnstone]

in my past life time, I was good friends with Henry Wades daughter and back in the 80's bad real estate days and she moved in with her dad and I had several dinners with Henry and he swears it was one shooter

however, another friends father who was in Patton's army swears there was no way he could get that many shots off

[Yssup Rider]

I remember that day very well. It was the first and only time I saw my father cry, and he was a Republican. Odd that that is my most vivid memory of the JFK assassination. It was old enough to get it, but everything else was so surreal.

that said...

Originally Posted by JohnnyCap

I always thought it was Frankie Valli:

Oh what a shot,
Late November 1963
Blew the head off of Kennedy,
What a rifle, what a shot.

That's some sick shit... But at least he didn't call Kennedy a porch monkey, cocksucker, mick or Muzzie.

That crap goes on here on a daily basis. I hope he got banned for something other than this.

[CuteOldGuy]

WHAT POSSIBLE DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE?

[acp5762]

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

WHAT POSSIBLE DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE?

Geesh, you sound like Hillary Clinton all of a sudden, lol. But you have a point ,so much time has past, and it's too big anyway. But it is part of our history and why not reflect on it.