Supreme Court strikes down most of the Arizona Immigration law

[CJ7]

Brewer is a psycho ...

[Sexyeccentric1]

Originally Posted by CJ7

Brewer is a psycho ...

Agreed, but most of the repubs are..lol

No such thing as a reasonable rationale republican anymore...sadly.

[CuteOldGuy]

The reasonable, rational Republicans have realized their party is a joke and only represents the monied interests, so they have become Libertarians. The same has happened to reasonable, rational Democrats. Neither major party has room for anyone who is reasonable or rational anymore.

[fetishfreak]

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

Well, I got it wrong on this one. I didn't realize how statist the Court has become. Not a good day for those who love liberty.

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

There's no way to spin it. It is a huge victory for large government, and a blow to freedom. Gov. Brewer is doing what she can, but this was not a win for Arizona.

COG, I find that most of the time I agree with you but I have to disagree with you on this one. This legislation while appealing on the surface was actually a pathway towards larger government not smaller government. I actually think that the show me your papers should have been struck down as well. I think that most of tend to forget what made this country great is immigration. We need to remember that.

Our problems will be better solved not by trying to keep out people who do want to work. I think the best way to solve the immigration problem is to reduce the amount of welfare that is available which will make the free loaders of society need to do the jobs that so called illegal immigrants are the only ones willing to do.

[CJ7]

Originally Posted by fetishfreak

COG, I find that most of the time I agree with you but I have to disagree with you on this one. This legislation while appealing on the surface was actually a pathway towards larger government not smaller government. I actually think that the show me your papers should have been struck down as well. I think that most of tend to forget what made this country great is immigration. We need to remember that.

Our problems will be better solved not by trying to keep out people who do want to work. I think the best way to solve the immigration problem is to reduce the amount of welfare that is available which will make the free loaders of society need to do the jobs that so called illegal immigrants are the only ones willing to do.

AYE!

[CuteOldGuy]

Actually, FF, just the opposite is true. The legislation was intended to give Arizona control over who enters Arizona, and who doesn't. Of course, US citizens are allowed to travel freely through Arizona, but the people of Arizona wanted the right to limit entry to US Citizens and other authorized individuals. The US government effectively said that Arizona has no say in who enters the state, to the effect that even though the law forbids entry into the country, Arizona must allow them entry into their state. It is a bizarro world, when the Federal government tells a state that they must allow people into their state, even though federal law forbids them to enter.

This is a statist victory, all the way.

I feel bad that you disagree with me, FF. I've found that when people agree with me, they are generally right. But thanks for being civil! That doesn't happen much around here.

[Whirlaway]

Bullshit alert..........the reasonable - rational folks have become independents and know that the LP is full of wackos and if they got any legislative powers they would be likely be worse than the GOP or Dems.............the LP can't get elected to national office so they are only useful idiots in pulling the mainstream their way - once in a rare elction.......the Tea Party is more successful, more organized, more principaled than the LP......and the Tea Party knows it is about winning elections; so they are very OK with running their candidiates within the GOP, voting for like minded Republicans and so on......don't believe the BS that the only saving answer is a vote for the LP !

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

The reasonable, rational Republicans have realized their party is a joke and only represents the monied interests, so they have become Libertarians. The same has happened to reasonable, rational Democrats. Neither major party has room for anyone who is reasonable or rational anymore.

[fetishfreak]

I will always try to be civil. I also tend to agree with you more than I disagree. (at least so far!) I see that you are making a states rights argument which, while attractive, is not a complete view. I am making a constitutional/ individual freedom argument on the whole. The federal government is responsible for immigration policy, not the states. That is why the 3 provisions were struck down. The reason the 4th should have been struck down is that it violates the 9th amendment. We should not be required to carry with us papers just to prove that we are citizens. This should not change based on nationality or color of your skin. The show me your papers is reminiscent of Nazi Germany. I also feel that this legislation may have been adopted by other states and then been used by the federal government to force a national ID card.

It also violates the right of the citizens to live their lives without undue interference from any level of government.

[CuteOldGuy]

Originally Posted by Whirlaway

Bullshit alert..........the reasonable - rational folks have become independents and know that the LP is full of wackos and if they got any legislative powers they would be likely be worse than the GOP or Dems.............the LP can't get elected to national office so they are only useful idiots in pulling the mainstream their way - once in a rare elction.......the Tea Party is more successful, more organized, more principaled than the LP......and the Tea Party knows it is about winning elections; so they are very OK with running their candidiates within the GOP, voting for like minded Republicans and so on......don't believe the BS that the only saving answer is a vote for the LP !

Well, at least now we've heard from the right wing statist point of view.

The only reason the LP hasn't gotten more traction is because the media keeps telling people the LP has no traction. If people looked seriously into the LP, they'd find a lot of common ground and common sense, along with a very principled dedication to freedom.

[CuteOldGuy]

I understand your argument, FF, and I don't like the idea of "showing your papers" either. However, Congress did make the law, and the federal government's refusal to enforce the law is what precipitated the Arizona law. Citizens do not have to prove their citizenship. Non-citizens have to prove they are here legally. The law is only triggered when they are lawfully stopped for another reason, and the officers have further reasonable suspicion that the suspect is here illegally. If the officer calls ICE, and ICE has no record of the suspect, the presumption has to be that the person is a citizen.

Again, it is the government having to prove the person is illegal, not the person having to prove they are legal.

[CJ7]

LP is gas

how fitting.

[CuteOldGuy]

LP is a gas that, once ignited, will bring the light and warmth of Freedom to all!!

[Whirlaway]

I don't know what your definition of statism is but if anybody has allegiance to a losing proposition; then it is the individual who pledges fidelity to a party that can't get traction with voters.

And supporting the Tea Party platform is about as far from status quo as one can realisticaly be in these divided times.

What's not to like with these Tea Party ideas from New Hampshire:

We Believe;
1] That all powers not expressly delegated to the Federal government are the sole domain of the states, as set forth by the Founding Fathers in Article 10 of the U. S. Constitution.

2] In fiscal responsibility and the prudent use of public funds.

3] In limited government as envisioned by the Founding Fathers and for the reasons that they stated.

4] In the rule of law and its uniform application at all levels of government and society.

5] In the national sovereignty of the United States, its proper defense and security, to include her borders.

6] In the personal rights and responsibilities of every U.S. citizen, as expressed by the Founding Fathers.

7] In the free market as the basis of all business conducted within our borders.


Or these from Virginia:
The primary purpose of government is to protect the lives, liberties, and properties of its citizens and those lawfully within their borders.

The federal government has grown well beyond its constitutional limitations as proscribed by the Constitution and reinforced by the 10th Amendment.

The rights of law-abiding citizens to own and use firearms in a responsible manner for recreation, hunting, and protection should be protected.

The current tax code is too lengthy, burdensome, and convoluted and thus ought to be revised or replaced.

The Federal Reserve ought to have no hand or say in the printing or distribution of the money supply and should be abolished.

Education is not a federal issue and ought to be left to the states and localities with primary rights and responsibilities residing with the family.

The federal government has no authority to authorize any national health care plans, meddle with existing plans, nor mandate any person to purchase any insurance or program.

The federal government is crushing current and future generations under the weight of a national debt. Not only should the government balance its budget, it should greatly curtail spending immediately only to engage in functions proscribed in the Constitution.

We oppose any and all laws and mandates forced upon the citizens by supranational organizations such as the United Nations.

We support greater transparency and openness in all levels and branches of government.

[CuteOldGuy]

What the Tea Party says is nice, but what it does is different. How many Tea Partiers supported the NDAA?

[joe bloe]

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

Well, at least now we've heard from the right wing statist point of view.

The only reason the LP hasn't gotten more traction is because the media keeps telling people the LP has no traction. If people looked seriously into the LP, they'd find a lot of common ground and common sense, along with a very principled dedication to freedom.

Any party that stands for the Constitution and limited government, as the LP does, is swimming upstream. We have become a de facto democracy (not a constitutional republic). We have ignored the Constitution and pandered to the mob for so long that it may not be possible to put the genie back in the bottle.

People will never vote contrary to what they perceive is their self interest, even when it's only short term self interest. The majority of the American people will probably never support a strict constitutional goverment that doesn't give them lots of free stuff. If that means giving up their freedom, most people will do so happily.

Once socialism gets a foothold, as it clearly has in America, it's almost impossilbe to get rid of.