Individual rights

[Mr MojoRisin]

Originally Posted by Whirlaway

Scenario:

I am one of 3 small pizza shops in a medium sized town. As part of my small business I do catering, which requires that I be at the event to provide service. Catering is a small part of my business income.

A gay couple walks into my pizza shop for a slice and a drink - I serve it up. No problem.

A week later that gay couple walks in and wants me to cater their wedding event. Maybe create some "gay themed" pizzas. I say I can't/won't (religious beliefs). I offer to make my regular pizzas for their event. But they have to pick them up. I politely tell them I won't be on site or create "gay themed" pizzas. I also tell them the ABC Pizza shop (across the street) can probably accommodate them. The gay couple refuses and files a discrimination suit, forcing me out of business.

That scenario should never happen. A law is needed to accommodate/protect conscientious religious objections.

A gay themed pizza? Someone who is artistic and has a sense of humor could run with that one. Just saying, lol. But I agree, serve them up whatever. We don't have to applaud it, but we can't change anything either.

Jim

[Guest030824]

Tim like most liberals you think your individual rights carry more weight that mine. Are you prepared to bake a KKK cake? Are you prepared to bake a cake declaring blacks as inferior to whites? I maintain that money will out weigh every thing else. I refuse to sell a gun to a gang banger is that wrong? For me the individual rights topic came up when the city decided that as a restaurant owner I can not allow smoking in my establishment. If it is clearly marked on the door that I allow smoking than it should be allowed.

[JD Barleycorn]

Originally Posted by timpage

Because you're not surrendering any individual rights. You're being prevented from exercising your discriminatory intolerant impulses.

Are you seriously advocating that you be allowed to refuse service to African-Americans because you may not like black folks? Or Jews because you're an anti-Semite? Or gays because you are a homophobe?

Incredible.

Why do the left wingers always read stupid things into what people write or say. It's like their brains don't work very well, some kind of cerebral short circuit. I say I have an individual right to associate with whom I want to associate with and Timmietard reads "I hate ................(fill in the blank) people". I suspect that it is some form of ADHD at work here. Possibly some mental retardation when it comes to comphrehension.

Are you serious saying that a business owner (an individual) does not have the right under the Constitution to choose their clientele? Are you some kind of a fascist? You know Timmietard, we all know that you really have no concern at all about gay, black, or Jewish people. You're a fraud. You just want something to bitch about (like a little girl). It is either that or there is one other possibility; you just don't understand common sense and logic. You have people doing your thinking for you...and they are doing a poor job.

Since no one has said it yet, we're talking about the latest cause celeb among gay supporters, the Indiana religious freedom law. The same law that 19 other states have in place and a simliar law that Bill Clinton signed in the 90s. It does not allow blanket discrimination but it allows a owner of a business to choose not to do something that is against their religious concepts.

Let me explain this way; if a gay couple shows up at a bakery and requests a typical birthday cake then I expect that they will get a cake and the owner is not doing anything to violate their religious code. It's just a birthday cake! Some matter if a biker from the Aryan Nation rode up to a Jewish bakery and just asked for some bread. They get their bread!
Now if that same gay couple asks for a wedding cake for a gay wedding, with obviously gay ornaments on the cake, the owner is guaranteed the religious freedom guaranteed in our Constitution to say NO! they don't believe in gay marriage. Or a black owned bakery could turn down Klan cake, or that Jewish bakery could ask the Aryan Nation guy to leave is he wants a Happy Birthday Hitler cake.


To oppose the Indiana law either requires no understanding of the law or a blatant diregard for our Constitution. More likely just something to bellyache about because you are a partisan, unthinking hack.

[timpage]

Originally Posted by tucson

Tim like most liberals you think your individual rights carry more weight that mine. Are you prepared to bake a KKK cake? Are you prepared to bake a cake declaring blacks as inferior to whites? I maintain that money will out weigh every thing else. I refuse to sell a gun to a gang banger is that wrong? For me the individual rights topic came up when the city decided that as a restaurant owner I can not allow smoking in my establishment. If it is clearly marked on the door that I allow smoking than it should be allowed.

No, I'm not. And, nobody can make me do it. Nor can anybody make the baker bake a KKK cake. That is simply not going to happen. Your entire argument presumes that a vendor or person in the service industry is currently required to provide services that they don't provide. Pizza makers aren't required to produce cock-shaped pizzas...unless they are advertising cock-shaped pizzas. What is it that you folks don't get about that?

The cigarette argument is different. It's a public health issue....and another thread.....but, by the way, I agree with you. If folks don't want to eat in a restaurant where other diners are having a smoke....they can go elsewhere.

[timpage]

Originally Posted by JD Barleycorn

Why do the left wingers always read stupid things into what people write or say. It's like their brains don't work very well, some kind of cerebral short circuit. I say I have an individual right to associate with whom I want to associate with and Timmietard reads "I hate ................(fill in the blank) people". I suspect that it is some form of ADHD at work here. Possibly some mental retardation when it comes to comphrehension.

Are you serious saying that a business owner (an individual) does not have the right under the Constitution to choose their clientele? Are you some kind of a fascist? You know Timmietard, we all know that you really have no concern at all about gay, black, or Jewish people. You're a fraud. You just want something to bitch about (like a little girl). It is either that or there is one other possibility; you just don't understand common sense and logic. You have people doing your thinking for you...and they are doing a poor job.

Since no one has said it yet, we're talking about the latest cause celeb among gay supporters, the Indiana religious freedom law. The same law that 19 other states have in place and a simliar law that Bill Clinton signed in the 90s. It does not allow blanket discrimination but it allows a owner of a business to choose not to do something that is against their religious concepts.

Let me explain this way; if a gay couple shows up at a bakery and requests a typical birthday cake then I expect that they will get a cake and the owner is not doing anything to violate their religious code. It's just a birthday cake! Some matter if a biker from the Aryan Nation rode up to a Jewish bakery and just asked for some bread. They get their bread!
Now if that same gay couple asks for a wedding cake for a gay wedding, with obviously gay ornaments on the cake, the owner is guaranteed the religious freedom guaranteed in our Constitution to say NO! they don't believe in gay marriage. Or a black owned bakery could turn down Klan cake, or that Jewish bakery could ask the Aryan Nation guy to leave is he wants a Happy Birthday Hitler cake.


To oppose the Indiana law either requires no understanding of the law or a blatant diregard for our Constitution. More likely just something to bellyache about because you are a partisan, unthinking hack.

I've already responded to this ad nauseum. Read my other posts. No baker is going to be forced to put gay ornaments on a cake. No black owned bakery is ever going to be forced to bake a Klan cake. No Jewish baker is going to have prepare a Hitler cake. The entire premise is absurd.....just like you.

Try to keep up. We're getting some pretty interesting posts on this...why don't you just shut the fuck up and read? Maybe you'll learn to be coherent.

[Guest030824]

"Your entire argument presumes that a vendor or person in the service industry is currently required to provide services that they don't provide."
Tim that is exactly what you want the government to do. You or I as the owner of a business must prepare the cake as requested or we will be driven out of business.

[Whirlaway]

This has nothing to do with gay cake ornamentals; it is about conscionable objections based on religious beliefs.

The law is not intended to protect someone who refuses service in the normal course of their business - selling a cupcake to a customer. It is about unreasonable intrusions on people of faith and giving them a legal defense.

Some accommodation to those who can demonstrate religious objections is necessary; people shouldn't be forced out of business and into bankruptcy because of their religious beliefs.

[timpage]

Originally Posted by tucson

Your entire argument presumes that a vendor or person in the service industry is currently required to provide services that they don't provide.
Tim that is exactly what you want the government to do. You or I as the owner of a business must prepare the cake as requested or we will be driven out of business.

That just couldn't be more wrong, in my opinion. It's the kind of strawman argument Whirly and the admiral generate to gin up outrage...even though it is complete fantasy.

Do you seriously think that if JD walks into a Krispy Kreme tomorrow morning and says "I'm gay and I want a cup of coffee and a cock-shaped donut" that the kid behind the counter has to get busy forming the dough? Bullshit. The argument is simply incorrect.

[timpage]

Originally Posted by Whirlaway

This has nothing to do with gay cake ornamentals; it is about conscionable objections based on religious beliefs.

The law is not intended to protect someone who refuses service in the normal course of their business - selling a cupcake to a customer. It is about unreasonable intrusions on people of faith and giving them a legal defense.

Some accommodation to those who can demonstrate religious objections is necessary; people shouldn't be forced out of business and into bankruptcy because of their religious beliefs.

Whose been forced out of business and into bankruptcy because they wouldn't bake a pizza with a olive for a rectum in the middle for a gay couple? What law says the vendor has to bake a cock-shaped pizza when asked? You're fucking nuts. More hysterical bullshit to try to demonize the scary gay people. Just ridiculous.

The law is about legalizing discrimination based on pseudo-religious proclamations. They used to justify segregation on religious grounds.

[Guest030824]

A wedding cake is designed by the person paying for the wedding and each one is prepared to order. When buying a donut you take what ever is in the show case. This thread deals with wedding cakes that are designed to display the gay life style and some object to it. A gay ordering a plain white cake would never be refused. In the cases in question the person asking for the gay themed cake knew in advance that the bakery owner would balk at doing it and used that to drive the baker out of business. I have no problem with gays unless they insist on pushing my face into it.

[i'va biggen]

Originally Posted by JD Barleycorn

Why do the left wingers always read stupid things into what people write or say. It's like their brains don't work very well, some kind of cerebral short circuit. I say I have an individual right to associate with whom I want to associate with and Timmietard reads "I hate ................(fill in the blank) people". I suspect that it is some form of ADHD at work here. Possibly some mental retardation when it comes to comphrehension.

Are you serious saying that a business owner (an individual) does not have the right under the Constitution to choose their clientele? Are you some kind of a fascist? You know Timmietard, we all know that you really have no concern at all about gay, black, or Jewish people. You're a fraud. You just want something to bitch about (like a little girl). It is either that or there is one other possibility; you just don't understand common sense and logic. You have people doing your thinking for you...and they are doing a poor job.

Since no one has said it yet, we're talking about the latest cause celeb among gay supporters, the Indiana religious freedom law. The same law that 19 other states have in place and a simliar law that Bill Clinton signed in the 90s. It does not allow blanket discrimination but it allows a owner of a business to choose not to do something that is against their religious concepts.

Let me explain this way; if a gay couple shows up at a bakery and requests a typical birthday cake then I expect that they will get a cake and the owner is not doing anything to violate their religious code. It's just a birthday cake! Some matter if a biker from the Aryan Nation rode up to a Jewish bakery and just asked for some bread. They get their bread!
Now if that same gay couple asks for a wedding cake for a gay wedding, with obviously gay ornaments on the cake, the owner is guaranteed the religious freedom guaranteed in our Constitution to say NO! they don't believe in gay marriage. Or a black owned bakery could turn down Klan cake, or that Jewish bakery could ask the Aryan Nation guy to leave is he wants a Happy Birthday Hitler cake.


To oppose the Indiana law either requires no understanding of the law or a blatant diregard for our Constitution. More likely just something to bellyache about because you are a partisan, unthinking hack.

Your explanation sounds like discrimination. I like the signs that are appearing stating they will serve anyone. That is what America is all about.

[timpage]

Originally Posted by tucson

A wedding cake is designed by the person paying for the wedding and each one is prepared to order. When buying a donut you take what ever is in the show case. This thread deals with wedding cakes that are designed to display the gay life style and some object to it. A gay ordering a plain white cake would never be refused. In the cases in question the person asking for the gay themed cake knew in advance that the bakery owner would balk at doing it and used that to drive the baker out of business. I have no problem with gays unless they insist on pushing my face into it.

Everything I've read about that baker being "driven out of business"... including quotes from the baker.... indicates the gay cake thing was unrelated to the subsequent business failure. I certainly haven't seen anything factual about a law suit that drove him in to bankruptcy as has been repeatedly stated in the postings on this board. And, again just based on what I have read, the baker actually got a bump in business....probably from conservatives like Whirly and the admiral who wanted to support the discrimination because they are closet gays with repressed feelings who are acting out.

I seem to recall also reading that the baker's business was located in an area of town with a significant gay population. Seems odd for somebody in a service business.

The point is this.....nobody can walk into a bakery or any other business and force the owner to provide a service or a product that the owner does not want to provide. Now, if the owner is stupid and says "I don't provide cakes to cock-sucking faggots, now get the fuck out", maybe he deserves the boycott he is going to get from the gay community and their supporters. I suppose the market decides that. The idea that a service provider refusing to provide a gay-themed cake to a gay couple subjects that provider to civil legal liability is a fiction....propounded, as I have noted repeatedly, to get the cranks and nutjobs wound up.....nothing like hatred and intolerance towards another group of human beings to bind a voting bloc together. It's what the republicans are all about.

[dirty dog]

Originally Posted by timpage

Whose been forced out of business and into bankruptcy because they wouldn't bake a pizza with a olive for a rectum in the middle for a gay couple? What law says the vendor has to bake a cock-shaped pizza when asked? You're fucking nuts. More hysterical bullshit to try to demonize the scary gay people. Just ridiculous.

The law is about legalizing discrimination based on pseudo-religious proclamations. They used to justify segregation on religious grounds.

Here is a court case where a baker was forced to make a gay cake, so yes it can happen when there is not law against it.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/...raining-after/

[timpage]

Originally Posted by dirty dog

Here is a court case where a baker was forced to make a gay cake, so yes it can happen when there is not law against it.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/...raining-after/

Wow. I stand corrected.

[Guest030824]

Amen